The on/off debate- does leaving an espresso machine on overnight use more power?
Hi,
I have a coffee concession within a deli and the owner is concerned about the power consumption of leaving our FB70 on overnight. It is a 2 group and is left idle for 12 hours each day. It is 220Volt, single phase, runs on 3600 standard wattage, and 4600 high wattage. I know very little about electronics and so I can not work out its power consumption.
I am wondering whether we are using more energy leaving it on than if we were to turn it off. I imagine that if it is heating from cold, then it is using the high wattage, while maintaining heat is using lower wattage but over time this would add up. The other issue is that the power used over night is cheaper than the power used during the day and as the landlord's concern is financial (not environmental) this needs to be taken into account.
Has anyone done the maths on this before?
Andrew
I have a coffee concession within a deli and the owner is concerned about the power consumption of leaving our FB70 on overnight. It is a 2 group and is left idle for 12 hours each day. It is 220Volt, single phase, runs on 3600 standard wattage, and 4600 high wattage. I know very little about electronics and so I can not work out its power consumption.
I am wondering whether we are using more energy leaving it on than if we were to turn it off. I imagine that if it is heating from cold, then it is using the high wattage, while maintaining heat is using lower wattage but over time this would add up. The other issue is that the power used over night is cheaper than the power used during the day and as the landlord's concern is financial (not environmental) this needs to be taken into account.
Has anyone done the maths on this before?
Andrew
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by nik orosi on
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i was leaving my gb 5 3 groups turned on over night for long time, just turning lights off, then by accident, some costumer said to turn it off cos anyway im coming earlier to my shop so i can turn it on and get it right for work. so i said, nothing to lose, lets play...
in a month, my energy bill was smaller than usual, and with all equipment, and with cheaper power using by night, all in all, i was surprised with saved money and its like that for months now...
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Permalink Reply by Andrew on
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nik orosi said:i was leaving my gb 5 3 groups turned on over night for long time, just turning lights off, then by accident, some costumer said to turn it off cos anyway im coming earlier to my shop so i can turn it on and get it right for work. so i said, nothing to lose, lets play...
in a month, my energy bill was smaller than usual, and with all equipment, and with cheaper power using by night, all in all, i was surprised with saved money and its like that for months now...
Thanks Nick, we will have to have a play too...
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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on
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Off many hours will definitely save some go juice and hence $$$. OTOH the highest rate of failure in electronics is during powering on. (This is based a couple decades field service in the computer industry.) Any unexpected failure can/will cause immediate headache and lost revenue and hefty repair bills. OTOH leaving on 24/7 while safer from a failure standpoint will cause group gaskets to need replacing more often. (No big deal, cost ~$6 each and I replace them myself.) Any electronic item which is mission critical is best left on 24/7 in my experience. I leave my LM 3grp on 24/7.
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Permalink Reply by Alun Evans on
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The technicians I have talked to in Italy, say yes there will be a minimal power saving. However, more importantly they have pointed out that leaving the machine on 24/7 actually helps slow down scale build up in the hydraulic system of the machines. In a perfect world scale would not be a problem, because we all clean our sofetners every 10-15 days... however anything to slow it down would of course minimise any chance of scale related (expensive) damage- I dont know how many machines I have seen in Indonesia that scale has resulted in them having to be opened and stripped down.
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Permalink Reply by Mitch Buckner - Bella Caffe on
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Another thing that turning the machine off at night will hurt is gaskets & o rings. The gaskets & orings in the machine are made for high heat conditions. When you turn the machine off & on, any rubber in the machine will expand & contract (for that matter, so will metal). So basically every day your gaskets & o rings are growing & shrinking with the change in temp. which over time weakens the rubber causing leaks in water or steam. By keeping the machine on at all times the temp is constant keeping those gaskets constant. I do catering & concessions & dont have a constant power supply (not to mention I sometimes go weeks between gigs) so my machine is cut on & off each time. I've got 2 espresso machines sitting on my counter right now that Im in the process of rebuilding. 1 has a couple bad steam leaks (the other is a computer problem). This may have been prevented if it was able to be left on all the time. Mike is also right about the rate of failure being the biggest on startup. I do alot with computers as well & know that most of the time, if a problem is going to occur, its going to happen when first starting the machine up, not during operation. I keep my computers on all the time, only shutting them down occasionally to refresh windows (if I wasnt running windows, I could probably leave them on indefinitely) But I will shut them down if Im out of town for a few days. Last month I was gone for about 4 days & shut everything down, came back in town & turned my computer on & the monitor was shot. Would have probably lasted for alot longer if it hadnt been shut down. So in my opinion, leave your espresso machine on to help on maintenance. I dont think the power consumption is much higher anyhow. You use most of your power in startup & then its able to back off. Think about boiling a pot of water. When you start from cold you've got to turn the heat on high until it comes to a boil. Once its boiling, you can turn the heat down to keep it hot. Now you put that in a sealed container (like a boiler) and it takes less heat to bring to a boil & less heat to keep it at a boil. So, if you arent using the machine, all its needing to do is keep just enough heat on it to keep it hot. Startup could use enough heat in my opinion for a couple of hours of just sitting there & keeping it hot. Get rid of the daily startup energy & you probably arent using much more overall.
Mitch
Bella Caffe
miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:Off many hours will definitely save some go juice and hence $$$. OTOH the highest rate of failure in electronics is during powering on. (This is based a couple decades field service in the computer industry.) Any unexpected failure can/will cause immediate headache and lost revenue and hefty repair bills. OTOH leaving on 24/7 while safer from a failure standpoint will cause group gaskets to need replacing more often. (No big deal, cost ~$6 each and I replace them myself.) Any electronic item which is mission critical is best left on 24/7 in my experience. I leave my LM 3grp on 24/7.
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This is the problem I feared. Our interests lie in maintaining the machine while the landlords more interested in saving some pounds. Thanks for your response.
Mitch Buckner - Bella Caffe said:Another thing that turning the machine off at night will hurt is gaskets & o rings. The gaskets & orings in the machine are made for high heat conditions. When you turn the machine off & on, any rubber in the machine will expand & contract (for that matter, so will metal). So basically every day your gaskets & o rings are growing & shrinking with the change in temp. which over time weakens the rubber causing leaks in water or steam. By keeping the machine on at all times the temp is constant keeping those gaskets constant. I do catering & concessions & dont have a constant power supply (not to mention I sometimes go weeks between gigs) so my machine is cut on & off each time. I've got 2 espresso machines sitting on my counter right now that Im in the process of rebuilding. 1 has a couple bad steam leaks (the other is a computer problem). This may have been prevented if it was able to be left on all the time. Mike is also right about the rate of failure being the biggest on startup. I do alot with computers as well & know that most of the time, if a problem is going to occur, its going to happen when first starting the machine up, not during operation. I keep my computers on all the time, only shutting them down occasionally to refresh windows (if I wasnt running windows, I could probably leave them on indefinitely) But I will shut them down if Im out of town for a few days. Last month I was gone for about 4 days & shut everything down, came back in town & turned my computer on & the monitor was shot. Would have probably lasted for alot longer if it hadnt been shut down. So in my opinion, leave your espresso machine on to help on maintenance. I dont think the power consumption is much higher anyhow. You use most of your power in startup & then its able to back off. Think about boiling a pot of water. When you start from cold you've got to turn the heat on high until it comes to a boil. Once its boiling, you can turn the heat down to keep it hot. Now you put that in a sealed container (like a boiler) and it takes less heat to bring to a boil & less heat to keep it at a boil. So, if you arent using the machine, all its needing to do is keep just enough heat on it to keep it hot. Startup could use enough heat in my opinion for a couple of hours of just sitting there & keeping it hot. Get rid of the daily startup energy & you probably arent using much more overall.
Mitch
Bella Caffe
miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:Off many hours will definitely save some go juice and hence $$$. OTOH the highest rate of failure in electronics is during powering on. (This is based a couple decades field service in the computer industry.) Any unexpected failure can/will cause immediate headache and lost revenue and hefty repair bills. OTOH leaving on 24/7 while safer from a failure standpoint will cause group gaskets to need replacing more often. (No big deal, cost ~$6 each and I replace them myself.) Any electronic item which is mission critical is best left on 24/7 in my experience. I leave my LM 3grp on 24/7.
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One thing you can consider (if you dont already have an espresso machine that is) is looking into a machine that might be better designed for Catering. I want to say in the past I've heard a manufacture claim that their machine was built ad a catering machine that could handle the regular heat up & cool down process without bothering the internals. I might be completely making this up but I think I've heard that! Normally a catering espresso machine is built with travel in mind. Slightly lighter than some other machines while still being a workhorse (I know my machines can handle about 150 cappuccinos an hour without losing steam). They've got the same boiler as an equivalent single head machine but they are always 110V (you dont get to many catering events & have a 220 plug) So they are just able to be transported easier. I would see a manufacture building a machine that is intended for catering to be able to hold up to the daily heat up & cool down but maybe not. Another thing about turning if off at night, you have to wait 20 minutes in the morning before you can have yourself a drink!!! Believe me, this is not cool when you show up to a Festival (my business) at 6 in the morning after being there till midnight the night before & having to wait 20 minutes before you can have your cappuccino!! You want it the second you open the door & no later. Shoot, by 20 minutes into showing up I would expect to be on my second or third!
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