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Permalink Reply by Mike on October 6, 2008 at 2:35pm

Is this the same Michael Sivetz that invented the Fluid Bed Roaster? Interesting theory but not a fan. A good air tight seal would eliminate freezer burn if you could remove all the air, not technology available outside a lab.Sivetz study is a bit out dated as well. We can feeze fruit but it does not retain its quality. Bread can be frozen,..but is it as good defrosted?

Ken Palmer said:

Michael Sivetz who is a chemist by trade says 3-6 days at room temp coffee has lost 90% of its flavor and aroma. If it is frozen IMMEDIATELY after roasting will keep up to 6-9 weeks in a airtight container. He gave this talk with documents and charts to back it up at a SCAA convention I believe Miami but I cannot say for sure You can contact him to verify this.

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Permalink Reply by Brady on October 6, 2008 at 5:37pm

Ken Palmer said:

Michael Sivetz who is a chemist by trade says 3-6 days at room temp coffee has lost 90% of its flavor and aroma.

Does this pass the sanity test? I'd certainly agree that there has been some change in flavor at the 6 day mark... but losing 90% of flavor and aroma? You think we might notice that?

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Permalink Reply by Mike on October 6, 2008 at 7:40pm

I often use intelligensia coffee when catering. Their bags have a one way valve so that degassing can happen without out side air entering. I have experienced an improvement in flavor a day after the bag is opened compared to right after opening. A good friend has incouraged opening espresso bags the day before use.

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Permalink Reply by Mike on October 7, 2008 at 12:59am

I have also heard of the nitrogen flush of bags. The first served right after opening tastes marginal and the same exceleration that happens to illy beans happens in this case. Flavor is more than gases. There are oils in the bean that surface as coffee ages and some roast to bring them to the surface(not a fan). What happens when oils are frozen? They congeel and separate from other moisture. The weight loss that happen to coffee in the roasting process is chaff and moisture. My point being that the moisture nad oil separation in the freezing process can't be good for the flavor.A fresh dinner is better than a frozen one... Am I right. Roast and use weekly never touching the end. Sell to our costumers what they can go through in a week...Transparency? Honesty? Sure coffee may go longer,..But why?

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Permalink Reply by Dale Harris on October 7, 2008 at 2:45pm

I like this statement!

Mike said:

Sure coffee may go longer,..But why?

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Permalink Reply by Sam Purvis on October 15, 2008 at 9:09am

What is the story with vacuum sealed? Our roaster vacuum seals their espresso. We order once a week and are sure to burn through our reserves in 10 days or less but I feel like the whole vacuum sealed thing has a lot of mystery around it. I ask our roaster what their freshness standards are and they don't really give a day limit. They just say "we vacuum seal for freshness." Well, regardless, vacuum seal still has a ceiling. Does anyone know how far the vac seal extends the life of the coffee?

The little that I do know really resonates with letting the coffee speak, testing by taste. Of course, I do want some guidelines though.

Thanks

Sam

Benza Lance said:

Very true, but unless you're, god forbid, freezing the beans, I would say 10 days is pretty standard.
Now, vacuum sealed, that's a different story.

Denise Smith said:

Doesn't it also depend on storage conditions?

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Permalink Reply by Andy on October 15, 2008 at 9:34am

Above Mike discussed the negativity of freezing; I was at the Spro down in Chi Town and I heard in one of the lectures that the crystallization of the water in the bean damages it when frozen. I do not remember the context directly it could have even been for green bean shipping?

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on October 15, 2008 at 10:12am

Andy said:

Above Mike discussed the negativity of freezing; I was at the Spro down in Chi Town and I heard in one of the lectures that the crystallization of the water in the bean damages it when frozen. I do not remember the context directly it could have even been for green bean shipping?

That's not as much of a factor if it's flash-frozen. The longer it takes to freeze, the larger the ice crystals.

There is no single hard and fast rule about coffee age. I've had coffees that lose it after a week. I've had coffees that don't hit prime until day 12. I've had coffees that, when kept in a valved bag and left un-harassed, tasted like they were, at most, a week out of the roaster on day 22. I've had coffees that, when kept in a nitrogen bag and left un-harassed, tasted like they were at least two weeks old on day 9.

What can we learn from all this?

Not much. What we can learn is that we have much to learn.

As Benza already has said. Listen to the coffee. It'll tell you.

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Permalink Reply by John on October 15, 2008 at 3:53pm

Do any of you wait a few day's after roasting to start griniding and brewing? Or do you just start using it immediatly after roasting? I personally like the way my espresso tastes the day of and day after roasting, but it's been suggested to me that I should wait several days.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on October 15, 2008 at 8:52pm

John Kijote said:

Do any of you wait a few day's after roasting to start griniding and brewing? Or do you just start using it immediatly after roasting? I personally like the way my espresso tastes the day of and day after roasting, but it's been suggested to me that I should wait several days.

I generally find that I have to wait a few days if I want to avoid the gassy flavors. Of course, again, this depends on the coffee, but I do find that most coffees tend to not have fully developed flavors right out of the roaster, especially when brewed as espresso.

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