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Permalink Reply by Mike on October 9, 2008 at 12:45am

And it has! http://www.portafilter.net/2008/03/profilin.html

Mike said:

http://www.portafilter.net/2006/03/pressure-profilin.html

This was pretty cool and I hope more has come of it. I do remember reading this a few years back. I hope it wasn't just thrown out as some cute toy and thought un-needed.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on October 9, 2008 at 12:53am

Mike said:

Did a pre-infusing radical do you wrong? Or are you just hoping I will bow to you texas coffee greatness?

Jason Haeger said:

Mike said:

http://www.portafilter.net/2006/03/pressure-profilin.html

This was pretty cool and I hope more has come of it. I do remember reading this a few years back. I hope it wasn't just thrown out as some cute toy and thought un-needed.

Is this another attempt at a jab?

Pressure profiling is DRASTICALLY different than preinfusion.

It was a question, was it not? The question is, "Was the use of the phrase 'cute toy' an attempt at a jab at me?" You've responded with a question that hints at an answer, but indirectly so, so I will not assume.

However...
If so, it was unnecessary, and I'd ask a similar question in kind to the one you just asked me.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on October 9, 2008 at 1:03am

Mike said:

This is not jab. But a simple I could be wrong would work.

Jason Haeger said:

Mike said:

Did a pre-infusing radical do you wrong? Or are you just hoping I will bow to you texas coffee greatness?

Jason Haeger said:

Mike said:

http://www.portafilter.net/2006/03/pressure-profilin.html

This was pretty cool and I hope more has come of it. I do remember reading this a few years back. I hope it wasn't just thrown out as some cute toy and thought un-needed.

Is this another attempt at a jab?

Pressure profiling is DRASTICALLY different than preinfusion.

It was a question, was it not? The question is, "Was the use of the phrase 'cute toy' an attempt at a jab at me?" You've responded with a question that hints at an answer, but indirectly so, so I will not assume.

However...
If so, it was unnecessary, and I'd ask a similar question in kind to the one you just asked me.

Was it not enough that I stated it as opinion?

I'll tell you what. I'll trade you I-could-be-wrong 's if you want. Since you gave the first jab, you can also give the first I-could-be-wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on October 9, 2008 at 1:16am

Mike said:

I thought I said it wasn't a Jab. And some agree that this preinfusion is a great idea.

Suit yourself.

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Permalink Reply by Mike on October 9, 2008 at 6:07am

My desire in this discussion is to berate someone for anything. Perhaps it is an argument of terminalogy. Water being introduced to the coffee at a lower pressure and then brought to full pressure desired is good. This is done by different manufaturers by different methods that has been shown. I believe the cyncra to be cutting edge. La Marzocco has been asked and responded to the re-introduction of their paddles. The former WBC James is into pressure profiling for then result of better extraction. Lets not fuss over words and terms. To give some pre- wetting or introduction of water on an old linea AV. I played with years ago,.. Starting a momentary on and off then on for full extraction a met with some sucess with a naked portafilter less channeling. I have tried stuff since that worked too.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on October 9, 2008 at 2:06pm

Mike said:

My desire in this discussion is to berate someone for anything. Perhaps it is an argument of terminalogy. Water being introduced to the coffee at a lower pressure and then brought to full pressure desired is good. This is done by different manufaturers by different methods that has been shown. I believe the cyncra to be cutting edge. La Marzocco has been asked and responded to the re-introduction of their paddles. The former WBC James is into pressure profiling for then result of better extraction. Lets not fuss over words and terms. To give some pre- wetting or introduction of water on an old linea AV. I played with years ago,.. Starting a momentary on and off then on for full extraction a met with some sucess with a naked portafilter less channeling. I have tried stuff since that worked too.

I am finished with this particular "debate". I don't see it as a debate. I see it as an exchange of experiences.

We all need to experience things for ourselves. I'll leave you to do just that, and stop trying to get you to concede to the fact that while preinfusion is contained within pressure profiling, the inverse is not the case.

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Permalink Reply by Nuova Simonelli on October 10, 2008 at 12:18pm

Gray is no preinfusion
Turquoise is electronic preinfusion
Green is manual preinfusion
Blue is ramp-up preinfusion
Yellow is soft infusion
Red is SIS, which is a combination of ramp-up and soft infusion

Attachments:

• Infusion Graph.doc, 96 KB

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Permalink Reply by Lorenzo Perkins on October 10, 2008 at 12:53pm

So what differences do each of these pre-infusion types offer in regards to overall extraction? Is it all about reducing channeling, or is there a component of sugar/oil extraction differences as well? Does one effect the other? Can one machine do all of the above, or are these all engaged on various machines from various manufacturers? If the latter is the case, can any conclusions be drawn since all other variables are not equal?

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Permalink Reply by Mike on October 10, 2008 at 6:44pm

Each espresso blend is going to respond differently depending on how each component was prosessed. So the theory is that if the preinfusion or infusion can be controlled a skilled barista could by experimentation could find an ideal prosess. If a barista had a programable pressure profiler ( yet to be mass marketed) there would be more controls for those who care to find the ideal. Since each of the different preinfusion and soft infusions shown by nuova's very nice graph are not to my knowledge available on one machine, I'd say paddles or lever sound pretty good. Tempature adjustablity make me favor Synesso and La Marzocco PID options.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew on October 14, 2008 at 5:26pm

I think that a little more than we really think is happening during manual pre-infusion...

First I know that when pressure is increased, temperature and subjective humidity become relative factors. That is simple science, I think...

Realizing that the puck in the group head is not a controlled environment, during the entire swell of pressure, changes will be occuring. Change in pressure means change in temperature and humidity. They are dependent on each other. Once the puck becomes fully saturated, a stableized pressure is finally reached, and in turn, subjective humidity and temperature become stableized. I am spelling stableized wrong, I'm pretty sure.

Also, to my understanding, different oils become more or less accessible during different pressure points.

I know that I fluxuate between using manual pre-infusion and not. There are so many factors to take into concern(days out of roast, relative indoor/outdoor temp, subjective humidity, brew temp...ect ect), that i've come to realize that I will have to make changes in my procedures to bring out the best in the coffee.

If only the machine was a more stable environment... :(

It should also be noted that there is no absolute humidity outside of a controlled environment. Humidity is relative of pressure and temperature . Pressure and temperature are relative to just about everything. We in the coffee industry know this better than anyone. I mention this because humidity has everything to do with proper extraction, and comes into play when pressure is affected.

So weather you are using manual pre-infusion, giclears, auto pre-infusion, ect. ect, keep in mind that we are dealing with a very volatile substance, and we must change with it in order to extract the best of the coffee. That was an awfully worded sentence. Wow.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew on October 14, 2008 at 5:30pm

I fully endorse pre-infusion in my technique, also. I find that my shots are better. I know that this is not always the case. My co-worker Tom makes absolutely wonderful shots without using the pre-infusion. It also should be noted that we are using a Synesso Cynerca. Thanks for listning. I hope I made sense!

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Permalink Reply by Jeremy Duncan on August 22, 2009 at 6:05pm

I have a Wega Nova XL 3 Group that does a timed pre-infusion. Works well. I'm happy with the way I can dial it in.

I have had a chance to pull shots on the Cyncra and the new Slayer machines though and the ability to ramp the pressure up and down is pretty incredible.

Sure, if you are using one bean all the time, the need for manual pressure profiling is probably moot. Set it and lock it in. But when you're pulling shots from different beans as a lot of 3rd wave cafes are the ability to profile is impressive.

The pre-brew (low=pressure) stage lets you accentuate the front of the mouth experience. Citrus, floral, berry, the full pressure brings the body, nut, chocolate and then pulling the pressure back at the end can help you taste the back off the mouth bitterness (in a good way). By profiling the pressure throughout the shot you can eally accentuate different beans and roasts.

Now if you're only serving one espresso... it's probably not as exciting.

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