And your Recommendation would be....
In attempting to sift through the possible choices for an espresso machine for my shop, I have realized that all the features ad infinitum are starting to confuse me. So I thought I would conduct a simple question-and-answer post. Please keep your comments in the order of the questions, but feel free to clarify your thoughts if necessary.
Taking into account that I will be getting a 2-group, semi-auto, please answer the following:
1. What features do you consider essential in a commercial espresso machine?
2. What features are nice to have but not necessary?
3. What do I want to avoid in an espresso machine?
4. What espresso machine would you choose for your startup shop?
Taking into account that I will be getting a 2-group, semi-auto, please answer the following:
1. What features do you consider essential in a commercial espresso machine?
2. What features are nice to have but not necessary?
3. What do I want to avoid in an espresso machine?
4. What espresso machine would you choose for your startup shop?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Espresso Rescue on
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Call me devils advocate, I drink off a single group Astoria so you know. I think everyone on here has at least learned something if not questioned some of the mantras brainwashing everyone on this forum. Anyway, I'll get back to anyone interested in seeking the superauto that does it all...including that "magic"
Jay Caragay said:Espresso Rescue said:Isn't the Dalla Corte and PID'd Marzocco halfway there? Just because a few steps in the process are taken out does that make the barista an automatron? How far does a machine have to be "tricked out" before it is not artisan? I'm trying to see where the line is. The general public is pretty accepting of advances in technology and would enjoy a morning conversation with the preparer of their drink regardless of how they are preparing it. That's where the magic is and that's where cafes can separate themselves from fast food chains.
You know, I'm really not interested in your debate. It's neither here nor there. The original poster asked about semi-auto machines and you've decided to make this some diatribe about super-autos. Personally, if Super-Auto is your choice and you're happy with that choice, then more power to you. Your path is one of less training, less cost, greater ease and lower overall costs. It's not the path my company chooses.
While adding functions such as PID controllers may be a common thread between the new generation of espresso machines and the super-auto versions, the super-autos remain push-button efficient - where you simply press the button and the machine does everything for you. Perhaps the new generation of semi-auto machines are "halfway" there, but it's that "halfway" that still makes the difference between a push-button "barista" and that of the craftsman Barista.
If you can't see that difference then that is where the divide between you and me lies, and forever it shall remain.
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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I'm going to quote Paul here a little bit:
"...I will be getting a 2-group, semi-auto, please answer the following:"
Hmm, I wondered why everyone mentioned semi-auto's too...
That having been said, I am curious to play with some of the higher end SA machines that you've mentioned with quality coffee in them. Don't get me wrong, I'm a barista and I hate them, but I just want to prove to myself that I can beat a SA every time, no matter what. I'm confident that I can.
I also find some other comments of yours interesting. If Paul himself is a barista, and an experienced, educated one who is passionate about offering the BEST product he possibly can, why wouldn't he want to build a coffee culture? Isn't this a passion of your heart Paul? I know it is. So why even suggest that he should just merely "introduce" his customers to coffee? He would be serving an inferior product and lying to himself and his passion every time he slid a drink across the counter. If he really wants to differentiate himself from "Just as good as Starbucks" why the hell would he put something in his store that was just like theirs? Why look as much like every other crappy coffee place they have ever walked into as possible when you are trying to establish yourself as a major quality upgrade? Your logic is extremely flawed here, I think you can see that.
Also, to the lack of training note. I WANT to train the hell out of my employees. I want them to get their hands and heads into the coffee that they are making. I want them curious about why we have different tampers, or why we dump out those last couple drops of milk in the pitcher and rinse it out. I want them to have a sense of ownership because of how much they have invested in the place to get to where they are. Along the way they start to build relationships and friendships with my customers. Maybe they know what a to-go customer not only drinks, but drives, and when they see the car pull onto the street they start banging out that drink so that it's nearly done by the time the customer enters the store. The button pusher that I hired to work my store for this month until they quit and get another job is never going to feel as invested in a place as someone who has spent months on the job and is finally able to start serving customers drinks. That missing link between barista and button pusher is what makes them feel qualified and special. They know that they are up to snuff when they finally get to start playing with the espresso equipment. Smiles creep across their faces when I tell them that they get to play with the espresso grinder finally. It's that sense of curiosity to keep diving deeper and deeper into coffee that I would never ever want to take out of my shop, and I would certainly never advise another person to start a shop without.
That is why no one suggested a super auto.
-bry
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Permalink Reply by Paul Yates on
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Awwwww, Bry! You get me, man! For the record, I should clarify, I am not an experienced barista. I am an obsessive beginner who is nuts about coffee, and who has spent the last four years as a sales manager in a family-owned bakery. I only "know" what I have learned here and at SCAA-Atl regarding espresso, etc. But I know my customers. I am the guy that sees the white Caddy at 6:30 AM on Thursday and starts boxing up the good doctor's order. I am the guy that feels slighted when a local geezer columnist in our local paper forgets to mention our 31 year old bakery when he writes a column about donuts he has know in his 69 years. That's a feeling of ownership. I am also the guy who brings some of James Spano's Tanzanian Peaberry to work, from my own stash, to make French press for my coworkers, who then start using the term, "mouth-gasm", etc. The expression in someone's eyes when they taste floral and fruit notes in coffee, PRICELESS! Oh, yeah, that was a plug for my roaster buddy...Cup to Cup Coffee in Savannah, GA! Spano rocks the Roast! Hmmmmm....starting to get thirsty again...
Rescue, I really meant no disrespect. You are entitled to your opinion. But I have had espresso from Starbucks. NASTY! I know it isn't just the machine, and like Bry, I think that with a really good single origin (pssst...where's Kayakman?) , or blend, you could get a much more drinkable shot. But it's a direction counter to everything I want in my shop. I am even toying with the idea of not offering pump pots of coffee after the morning rush, simply because pourover or Chemex is more economical and less wasteful. I really want a pour over bar...and I see Chi-town's Intelli is doing that now...
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Don't forget about establishing a local culture and how absolutely imperative it is that your coffee house be the absolute center of everything cultural that happens. Oh and have wait staff. And don't serve SO espresso ever. I don't like it so you shouldn't serve it.
That is all
Oh... and culture... Cafe Solo... Menus... Culture...
-bry
Paul Yates said:Awwwww, Bry! You get me, man! For the record, I should clarify, I am not an experienced barista. I am an obsessive beginner who is nuts about coffee, and who has spent the last four years as a sales manager in a family-owned bakery. I only "know" what I have learned here and at SCAA-Atl regarding espresso, etc. But I know my customers. I am the guy that sees the white Caddy at 6:30 AM on Thursday and starts boxing up the good doctor's order. I am the guy that feels slighted when a local geezer columnist in our local paper forgets to mention our 31 year old bakery when he writes a column about donuts he has know in his 69 years. That's a feeling of ownership. I am also the guy who brings some of James Spano's Tanzanian Peaberry to work, from my own stash, to make French press for my coworkers, who then start using the term, "mouth-gasm", etc. The expression in someone's eyes when they taste floral and fruit notes in coffee, PRICELESS! Oh, yeah, that was a plug for my roaster buddy...Cup to Cup Coffee in Savannah, GA! Spano rocks the Roast! Hmmmmm....starting to get thirsty again...
Rescue, I really meant no disrespect. You are entitled to your opinion. But I have had espresso from Starbucks. NASTY! I know it isn't just the machine, and like Bry, I think that with a really good single origin (pssst...where's Kayakman?) , or blend, you could get a much more drinkable shot. But it's a direction counter to everything I want in my shop. I am even toying with the idea of not offering pump pots of coffee after the morning rush, simply because pourover or Chemex is more economical and less wasteful. I really want a pour over bar...and I see Chi-town's Intelli is doing that now...
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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on
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Mantras brainwashing everyone?
Really???
Just to note, while I do have very strong positions on the state of our coffee business, I really don't mind it when others do not share my point-of-view. In fact, I think only the ridiculously fanatical (or relatively stupid) people take the path I'm taking. The pursuit of me and my company is not for everyone. Many more people are operating average coffeeshops with banks of airpotted coffees, super-auto machines, par-baked goods and workaday baristas who are making much more money.
Truth be told, if I was a smarter businessperson, I would probably go for the average indie model. It's cheaper, more cost-efficient and caters to the mainstream demographic. But the reality is: if I followed that path, I might as well shove a shiv in my neck and kill myself (or go back to making movies).
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Jay Caragay said:I might as well shove a shiv in my neck and kill myself (or go back to making movies).
...and the difference would be.....???
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Bryan Wray said:Jay Caragay said:I might as well shove a shiv in my neck and kill myself (or go back to making movies).
...and the difference would be.....???
haha, just kidding jay.
-bry
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Bry-
To me, there is no difference - the result is the same. Die making mediocre coffee or die making movies.
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First off, my argument for super autos stemmed from questioning Pauls choice of what apparently is obvious to everyone else (If everyone would like to discuss this in another feed then I will start one but I think it’s relevant and helpful for Paul to figure out what equipment he really needs for his setting). Semi autos are the best tool for a barista to strut their stuff on. I am in total agreement. Baristas are artists that deserve recognition for their talents and opportunity to let their awesome power over ground beans shine. I too love the first two to three seconds of extraction out of a naked portafilter where those gorgeous colors are not quite gushing, not quite oozing through that shiny steel basket. I gladly shove my nose into a doser as the rich aromas float from freshly ground beans. I'm not an undercover Starbucks addict nor do i think fries go with a trucker-size, Hersheys-drowned mocha.
Paul went to a coffee show. We all remember our first show. By the time you are through the first aisle your pupils are dilated and you have the sweats. There are so many gadgets and so much amusing information that it's really hard not to get excited about it. Suddenly all you want is a Cafe Vita trucker hat and anything to do with coffee screenprinted onto the nearest American Apparel garment. You're just short of abandoning your life and volunteering at orgin. We've all been there and it's a very special place.
Paul, I’m trying to be a voice of realism here. Starting a business, especially one based on a product that you have a short history with, is a lot of work. Your training alone is an investment. Perhaps by striving to match the artistry of baristas in espresso-laden cities you will sacrifice the time and effort it takes to be the owner/operator of your shop.
Bryan, I think it’s a very tall order to ask one person to create an entirely new culture in a community that has such little exposure to espresso. The step-by-step approach that I suggested seems perfectly logical. Paul has no one to model his business after in the immediate area so EVERYTHING is up in the air until his educated guesses are tested after opening. How will he ever pin down what is working and what’s not in his business when everything is potentially different day to day?
Here’s an idea: What if your café “grew” with the community’s interest in espresso? Say one year is enough time to allow people in your community to visit your location and try espresso for the first time. Maybe they are getting accustomed to getting espresso in a drive-thru, maybe they are getting accustomed to drinking espresso while “hanging out” in a business. At your first anniversary you invite the community to an informational session about espresso. A little while later you invite them to the unveiling of your first traditional machine. This is after your staff is established (more invested in your overall plan than what toys they get to play with) and you have proper time to train yourself and them while maintaining day to day activity. You have the community watch your baristas “compete” against each other. You demonstrate different methods of brewing, even show what a cupping looks like. Everyone is growing together with espresso in taste, knowledge and practice. It’s like you bring the SCAA show to them, let them be wowed like you were.
The crucial part of that plan would be having the first year to build your foundation and be financially responsible. A superauto allows you the freedom to establish that before diving into absolute espresso perfection mirroring that of world famous Intelligentsia. You aren’t “lying to yourself” if your plan for the community is a little longer term like what I have suggested above.
Bryan you are in fantasy land if you think a start-up can afford to train their staff for months before letting them onto the floor. It’s possible to have curious, invested employees without the reward system you speak of, just be invested in them!
Paul, your customers will likely follow you to your new shop. And they will be interested in the success of your business. From what you describe of them that much is true. They will be an important part of the stability you need in your first year and they will appreciate your coffee however you brew it until your systems are in place. Here’s an interesting question: how many drinks does it take the average person to pull out the floral and citrus notes in a coffee? For me it was somewhere between four and five hundred. Paul? Bryan?
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Rescue-
Have you ever actually owned or operated a coffee joint before? Because your response seems to encourage Paul to go out, build a shop (with presumably a Super Auto), "build" the community (with super auto coffee) and then either buy a new machine or build a new shop after a year - and the "community" will follow - is this correct?
Any operator knows how expensive it is to build a coffee joint. Let's spend twelve thousand dollars (probably more) on a super auto, only to chuck it in twelve months for a semi-auto??? Or let's spend one hundred thousand dollars building a shop, only to toss it off and build a new one in twelve months???
This just seems like a completely ludicrous way to go about things.
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Permalink Reply by James Liu on
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Hm. Let me chime in here and suggest the FB70/Linea (same basic machine, whichever works better with your decor) in large part because La Marzocco puts out a very detailed repair manual for it. If you're in a small town where Strabucks is exotic, it probably means you're your own machine tech. PID is great and the GB5 wand is a barista's dream, but neither is necessary for great espresso.
The car analogy is that an FB70 is like a carburated sports car, and a GB5 is your electronic whiz-bang supercar with computer controlled valves. Hope that helps.
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No Jay I haven't opened my own shop. I have helped others open shops and therefor have pretty good authority to give advice about it. Obviously I am not suggesting that Paul build another shop in a year. What I am suggesting is purchasing a superauto (these days prices on them have dropped significantly to compete with traditional) and relying on the consistency to build his staff and operations. After one year the machine should still have a resale value of 50-75% assuming it was cleaned regularly and taken care of. The market for used equipment is great and reselling the superauto really shouldn't be a problem (and yes I am speaking from experience on that as well). So in the end, Paul may have to spend a grand or so extra than if he started off with a semi auto.
I know the image of "chucking" a year old superauto probably gets you all hot and bothered Jay but to a lot of people it's a valuable piece of equipment.
Paul, is anything that I've said having an impact on your views? You can whisper so the popular kids don't think you're uncool.
Jay Caragay said:Rescue-
Have you ever actually owned or operated a coffee joint before? Because your response seems to encourage Paul to go out, build a shop (with presumably a Super Auto), "build" the community (with super auto coffee) and then either buy a new machine or build a new shop after a year - and the "community" will follow - is this correct?
Any operator knows how expensive it is to build a coffee joint. Let's spend twelve thousand dollars (probably more) on a super auto, only to chuck it in twelve months for a semi-auto??? Or let's spend one hundred thousand dollars building a shop, only to toss it off and build a new one in twelve months???
This just seems like a completely ludicrous way to go about things.
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