Astoria Gloria Lever - Yay or Nay?
Aloha Gang -
We are a fairly busy cafe out on Kauai. Looking to get a new machine and we really love the Astoria Gloria Lever machine.
1. It looks Cool and customers will probably love the gimmick of actually pulling a shot
2. I like the idea of the machine being easy to work on. As it is now, we have to fly someone in to work on our Cimbali
3. The price is reasonable
My main concerns are speed and the ability to train our people how to pull a good shot on it. Is it really that much slower? Is it possible to pull a shot and steam milk while its pouring? Is the handle really heavy, and will one arm on our barista be worn out after seven hours?
Thanks!
--Sean - Java Kai
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Without hitting any of the other points you've made, let me address #2.
The Gloria Lever machine will not be easier to work on than the pump version.
Yes, the lever model eliminates the motor pump. The motor used is extremely reliable though - in fact its one of the only parts I've yet to replace on a traditional machine. The pump head usually lasts for years and is relatively straightforward to buy and replace if it does go wrong. Your local Coca Cola guy could do it on the side if needed - bet he even has that pump in his van already.
The moving parts involved with the lever group are actually a step in the wrong direction. There are pivot joints, gaskets, and o-rings that wear. These groups need to be torn down, cleaned, and lubricated from time to time, and you need to know what you're doing. Compare that with a simple $75 solenoid valve that will happily run for years, attaches to the group with 2 bolts, and can be ordered and replaced in 15 minutes if it does go.
I can understand your skittishness regarding maintenance. The design of the Cimbali steam valve is a real weak point. If you don't rebuild it on a regular basis it will not work properly. Compared to that, the valve on a Astoria, Simonelli, La Marzocco, or Rancilio is a big step up - they can be ignored for a couple of years and still work well.
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Permalink Reply by sean garcia on
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anyone...?
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Permalink Reply by Jeremiah on
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Shot times will be comparable to a pump machine when dose and grind are dialed in correctly plus a few seconds pre-infusion. Total shot volume will be related to whether and when you re-pull (Fellini move), then no need to babysit. You can steam milk while the shot is pouring; overall not really slower. The lever pull is firm, but not difficult.
Benefits of the design include: low pressure pre-infusion, decreasing pressure through the shot, and decreasing temperature through the shot. These have the potential to extract layered and nuanced shots, but it depends on the same factors it takes to do it with any machine like a good grinder, good coffee, good roast, appropriate rest, grind, dose.
For maintenance somebody would have to learn how to dissemble the group to replace seals and bearings, but you don't actually take apart all the little components. If you're buying new, this is probably not something that will come up any time soon. If you get a set of each up front and have somebody mechanically inclined around, you probably will have less potential for down time than if you had to fly in a tech or wait to see which part fails to know what to order like on a pump machine.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Sabol on
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Lever machines are cool. The best tasting shots I've ever had have come from a lever machine. But lever machines are also unforgiving and the worst tasting shots I've ever had have come from a lever machine.
There is a reason that companies started putting electric pumps on their machines and replaced the spring loaded lever actuated grouphead with an electro-valve. And those reasons are the same today as they were then. Product consistency, ease of use, speed of service, and serviceability. I think there is a place for lever machines in the industry. But they are not a training machine. And honestly, if I walked into a shop that had a lever machine and it appeared that the baristas were not WBC competition level types I would consider walking back out. A lever machine in the hands of people who don't eat, sleep, breath, dream, and shower in coffee is a sure way to get bad espresso.
If you have a normal community coffee shop where people just want a cup of good coffee and your baristas come from the community and have no intention of being WBC super geeks but rather are students or artists who have a life of their own then you will be much happier with a semi auto like an Aurelia or Linea. The coffee will be happier, too.
Lever machines are speciality tools. The things Jerimiah said about the low pressure pre-infusion, decreasing pressure curve, and decreasing temperature curve are all true. But those things are guaranteed to deliver a really bad shot if the barista isn't a master of every single variable that coffee is susceptible to. And most baristas aren't. Even the ones who think they are aren't, most of the time.
My recommendation is get an Aurelia, get a good conical burr grinder, buy fresh coffee, buy fresh local milk, and make sure that every person who works there knows how to foam the milk. Spend your time on the milk foaming part. Most of your customers are going to be getting milk based drinks anyway. Make sure that everybody can get the nice Microfoam. Nothing ruins a latte or cappuccino faster than burned milk or milk that hasn't been stretched and finished properly. That will be what makes the difference in your customers eyes. The gimick of a lever machine fades pretty fast if their latte is burned and bitter.
Just my $0.02.
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I think good espresso takes a lot of skill no matter what. Levers aren't really harder to master, just different. I think people often confuse commercial spring levers and manual levers, because that's what they are describing with inconsistency and lots of practice to master. Any machine including the best in the industry can produce great shots or crap. The espresso machine is pretty far down the priority list of requirements to pull a great shot; I'd say it's somewhere after water, coffee, grind, ratio, prep.
I would actually give commercial spring levers a slight edge in ease of use because the pre-infusion and finess of the pressure profile could correct slight imperfections in preparation. Either kind of machine will require the same accompanying equipment, technique and training.
For maintenance, I personally trust old school mechanical over digital and electro-mechanical. The lever machines will always be fixable with a few relatively cheap parts, and there's lots of accounts of fifty year old machines coming out of barns and pulling shots.
I would say an espresso machine in the hands of people who don't eat, sleep, breath, dream, and shower in coffee is a sure way to get bad espresso. I do not disagree that an Aurelia and conical grinder would be an excellent choice. I'd pick a robur e.
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Jeremiah - In a normal shop situation lever machines are more difficult to use effectively for most people. They require a deeper understanding of what the machine is doing mechanically for the user to get them to perform at the level you are talking about. At a theoretical level I agree with you, however.
I don't agree with your recasting of my statement - "I would say an espresso machine in the hands of people who don't eat, sleep, breath, dream, and shower in coffee is a sure way to get bad espresso."
It is absolutely possible to train a person to use a dosing grinder, tamp at a specific pressure, and then use a volumetric dosing button to produce a perfectly acceptable shot of espresso. They don't have to be a chemist or a mechanical engineer. It might not be a competition level shot of espresso but most customers who are ordering milk based espresso drinks aren't looking for that. And even if it was a WBC winning shot most customers couldn't taste the difference, anyway. If a shop is using well sourced and well roasted, fresh local coffee then the inconsistencies you would get from a coffee program like that would result in most shots being perfectly fine. Some would be better than others. But that is the nature of espresso. The milk, however, is a lot more binary and will make a far larger impact on a customers drink if it's scalded or not stretched. If somebody does have that level of super coffee understanding then all the better. But I don't think it's necessary for everyone who works with coffee.
I also don't necessarily agree about the maintenance. Semi-autos with an electro-valve and a flowmeter are incredibly simple to work on and very reliable and most techs can work on them. Whereas lever machines are uncommon enough that many techs don't have the experience to rebuild them with confidence. There is a reason that lever machines have been displaced by semi-automatics. And it's not because semi-autos are cheaper.
Like I said, I like lever machines. In the hands of a barista with deep coffee understanding I think they produce an outstanding shot that has a nuance and layering that you don't get with a pump driven machine. I just don't think they belong in any given shop, especially a shop where throughput is an issue. I suppose you and I might just have to agree to disagree, however. ;)
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I think you are correct that we will not reach agreement. I do not believe that any equipment choice will allow good quality product to be produced by careless going through the motions robots, but I do agree that it doesn't matter for most shops serving giant cups of sugar laden milk to the masses. God knows there's no market in most places to make good espresso worth chasing unless it's important to the owner - especially in a tourist area I imagine.
However, I will go on record as saying you guys are way off base on the maintenance issue. I understand that you are not familiar with these machines and paranoid about breakdowns because pump machines break down so much, and you have to have a tech guy with experience and parts ready. You could buy two or three lever machines for the price of one Aurelia or GB5 and have a brand new machine on deck for that time when your bearings get loose or a seal fails on your lever machine...several to many years in depending on volume. Then you'd have your guy replace those parts, which you smartly bought a few sets of, at his leisure. Of course it wouldn't have to be a "tech" expert that you would pay to fly to Hawaii, but anyone with mechanical aptitude who would do it for fun or free coffee or less cash than it would cost to fly one of these dudes to a free vacation for a five minute solenoid replacement or whatever.
I hesitate to recommend a lever machine for anyone who is not passionate enough to chase down every bit of information out there and get excited about it, but you're doing people a disservice by misrepresenting them as harder to use and doomed to failure by any but those with the finest mustache and rarest, most ironic t-shirt.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Schaefer on
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It's hardly a misrepresentation to say that they're harder to use - it's pretty undeniable. I've seen numerous training sessions where absolute novices were put in front of a good quality grinder and a La Marzocco or Synesso machine, given about 15 minutes of instruction, and were pulling amazing shots by their second or third try. Now granted, it takes much longer than that to learn the subtleties of grind adjustment, freshness of beans, how the weather affects your shots, etc. Nevertheless, it's easy to get fantastic shots with no guess-work, especially if the grind and dose adjustments are already dialed in.
On a lever machine, the grind and dose issues are the same, but there are all sorts of other issues. There's the subtle timing you have to know - how long you hold the lever in each position to alter shot size, pre-infusion time, etc. There's the fact that you can't easily stop a shot short, other than by pulling it out of the stream. There's the potential for an explosive mess of near-boiling coffee if you choke a shot and don't know the sequence for safely removing it. There are usually bizarre flushing routines, which may be common on HX machines, but aren't necessary on the latest generations of multi-boiler machines.
I'm not here to say what's best for any given shop or barista. Lever machines have some advantages and definitely have a cool-factor as well. Anyone who chooses a lever machine and takes the time to figure the machine out certainly has my blessing. But there absolutely is a higher learning curve to get good quality shots from them. On a LM or Synesso machine, someone with basic training and a good grind can get shots to maybe 90% of their potential most of the time, pretty easily. On a lever machine, that same amount of training will get you basically nowhere. There's a lot more to learn before you can hope for consistently good results from a lever machine.
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At this point, I'm beginning to question your understanding of pump machine reliability, lever machine maintenance, and espresso machine pricing.
The first lever group PM rebuild is probably recommended long before any solenoid group components (or the pump) fails. How many years do you recommend a working commercial lever machine goes between group rebuild?
Yes, lever group rebuild is straightforward if you know how. If. Keep in mind that there are a couple of tricks and the gaskets can be tricky to obtain. So, given how few there are in most markets, some techs will never have seen one, many will have to pause to remember how its done. This isn't to say that guys like Mike and I are paranoid of levers or don't know anything about them... it is a simple statement of where things are.
So let's talk instead about how impossibly hard it is to fix a pump machine when, after several to many years, one of these components fails. Solenoid replacement requires using an Allen wrench to remove 2 screws. Pump replacement requires a wrench and (gasp) a screwdriver. The only trick is to turn off the water. With a couple of exceptions, you can pretty much use any manufacturers' pump or 3-way valve on any others' machine. Why would you fly someone to Hawaii for that? Ship parts to that handy neighbor and you'll be fine. What's so scary about that?
Also, as a lever machine fan, I'd love to know which manufacturer sells their lever machines for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of their semiauto version? This "buy 3 for the price of one and keep spares in the back" idea sounds pretty good!
For the record, I have a lever machine on my kitchen counter and love it. Looking forward to having the opportunity to place one with the right customer some day.
Jeremiah said:...However, I will go on record as saying you guys are way off base on the maintenance issue. I understand that you are not familiar with these machines and paranoid about breakdowns because pump machines break down so much, and you have to have a tech guy with experience and parts ready. You could buy two or three lever machines for the price of one Aurelia or GB5 and have a brand new machine on deck for that time when your bearings get loose or a seal fails on your lever machine...several to many years in depending on volume. Then you'd have your guy replace those parts, which you smartly bought a few sets of, at his leisure. Of course it wouldn't have to be a "tech" expert that you would pay to fly to Hawaii, but anyone with mechanical aptitude who would do it for fun or free coffee or less cash than it would cost to fly one of these dudes to a free vacation for a five minute solenoid replacement or whatever...
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OK, so point by point:
The only way you could stick a novice in front of any setup and get decent results is because you already had it dialed in (not especially: only) and that most likely means high quality dosing grinder and volumetric machine and/or micromanaging of their actions. You could do the same with a lever - doesn't mean much.
There are a few extra details to learn such as pre-infusion times, how to get different volumes, etc. I think I'll just go ahead and agree with you guys here that many people are not capable of learning complex and subtle systems that go beyond button pushing. It's sad, but that's the direction the world is moving towards. That's why I stated I would hesitate to recommend one to someone not interested enough to make the effort.
The statement about the same amount of training getting you nowhere because they are so much harder is patently incorrect. The only reason I am wasting my time replying to this discussion is because someone asked a question about something I have experience with and the replies contain misinformation on a forum where afaik only one member besides me has real world experience and he has not replied.
Brady, I know you have a lot of experience with maintenance and shop skills. I respect your experience with espresso equipment in general, but as you say lever machines are so rare in the industry that no one knows much about them anymore. On one hand we need a tech at the ready to work on a pump machine, and on the other anybody with an allen wrench and a screwdriver can fix one. Which is it? The same as a lever pretty much. The difference I was pointing out is that you can order a small pile of gaskets and bearings from the lever machine manufacturer along with your machine and these are the only parts that will ever require attention in normal circumstances. Maybe you could do the same with a pump machine with some solenoids and group gaskets and electro valves and flowmeters and buttons and electronic assemblies and whatever parts you have seen fail in years of servicing such machines; I would defer to your expertise as to what it would take to have parts on deck to cover the most common failures. It sounds like either way could work, but I think gaskets and bearings are much cheaper than electronics and such which brings me to the next point: cost.
OK, I just found out that a three group Aurelia is only like 11K which isn't that bad and a three group gb5 retails for 13.5K, and I was under the impression that they were like 15 or something. So you can get two industry's finest Bosco machines for the same price, and that would be my recommendation over the Astoria at a similar price point.
My impressions of pump machine reliability and maintenance comes from the standard recommendations of choosing based on availability of tech support for a given brand in your area, a healthy distrust of electronics and overly complex systems, and the fact that these individual parts are more expensive and available only from the manufacturer or distributors. You could get maintenance parts for a lever from an industrial supply company like grainger, really. The better pump machines have super complex engineering for good reason to address issues like temperature stability and to add desirable features such as pre-infusion capability. If I was stuck in some remote place in Eastern Europe or something and wanted to be sure to have espresso for as long as possible I would choose a lever and not because it looks cool.
The lever machine in your kitchen I would guess to be a europicolla or some other kind of manual lever. I have not played with one, but hear they are incredibly difficult to master. A commercial spring lever is a different beast entirely, beautifully simple and capable of some amazing things considering that their greatest features as far as anyone knows weren't even engineered on purpose but were the result of pure dumb luck.
There is a lot of ego and marketing and branding floating around the coffee industry and discouragingly little solidarity, cooperation and sharing of information. Most of the lever nerds are not even involved in this industry and tend to not venture into coffee shops much because of the perpetual disappointment of bad espresso, but I doubt that they would blame the espresso machine for the situation. Any decent commercial espresso machine can produce great espresso including an old school e61 heat exchange system so out of favor these days. Of course it takes proper training headed up by someone who understands the theory and methodology behind the actions taken. If you want to avoid THAT, just get a superauto.
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Ok. First, I'm happy to be a part of this robust conversation, and will attempt to respond with less snark going forward. You're adding a good perspective to this and I'd hope your friend jumps in as well.
For the record, my machine is an Elektra spring lever - so very similar to commercial versions from an operational standpoint. I do find it more challenging to get a good shot on it, but love it anyway.
Your observation about the apparent inconsistencies in my opinion is a good one, and I'm glad you voiced it. Hopefully I can clarify things.
In a nutshell -lever machines share many systems with their pump machine brothers. The systems they share are just as prone to failure (if not more so) as the ones that are on the group. For that reason alone, I think it's a stretch to suggest that lever machines somehow require less maintenance or will mean you're less likely to need a tech. That was the bottom line I tried to get to in my first post here.
Yes - replacing a pump or a brew valve are pretty easy - some of the easiest repairs on the machine. Troubleshooting a "no water from the group" to get to that point is harder. A good tech understands how things should work, can observe what's going on, has seen lots of reasons that things don't work, and can quickly figure out where to put the wrench. You mostly hire a tech for his or her brain, the speed and skill of the hands (as well as a well-stocked parts box) are nice too.
Look, I don't necessarily trust electronics or overly-complex systems. Where I think we differ though is in our assessment of what "complexity" means. A good lever machine is an elegant design that manages to look much simpler than it really is. Don't be fooled though - there is nothing accidental or simple there, that's just good engineering, balance, and decades of tweaking. A system with that many specific springs, bushings, and seals is no less complicated than a simple, common switch, motor, and electrovalve (which is all a simple semiauto pump machine uses to do that part of the job) - it's just different. Regardless, you're not going to walk down to the neighborhood hardware store (or even Grainger) for ANY of that stuff, pump or lever. That's one reason I do like the idea of buying a soft-parts spares kit with your lever machine. It's really handy that this is a practical option, it kind of has to be.
As for the rest of the machine - again, many commercial levers share most of those components with their pump-and-valve brothers, so this is kind of a wash. Pressurestat controlled heaters - common across the lineup. Steam valves are another big failure point that, again, is shared across the lineup. Same goes for overpressure valves, vacuum breakers, heating elements, etc. You get the idea.
Water related issues have big potential to plague both kinds of machines.
All machines use group screens and gaskets. Gaskets are a wash - none are fun to dig out if they get old. I'd much rather unscrew the screen from a pump machine than try to extract the cup style that you find on a lever and certain E-61 groups. Advantage - pump machine in my book.
Not trying to trash lever machines here, at all. All I was trying to accomplish with this was to dispel the idea that life with a lever was any easier than life with a semiauto.
Hope that makes my position a little more clear. Good discussion.
Jeremiah said:
OK, so point by point:
The only way you could stick a novice in front of any setup and get decent results is because you already had it dialed in (not especially: only) and that most likely means high quality dosing grinder and volumetric machine and/or micromanaging of their actions. You could do the same with a lever - doesn't mean much.
There are a few extra details to learn such as pre-infusion times, how to get different volumes, etc. I think I'll just go ahead and agree with you guys here that many people are not capable of learning complex and subtle systems that go beyond button pushing. It's sad, but that's the direction the world is moving towards. That's why I stated I would hesitate to recommend one to someone not interested enough to make the effort.
The statement about the same amount of training getting you nowhere because they are so much harder is patently incorrect. The only reason I am wasting my time replying to this discussion is because someone asked a question about something I have experience with and the replies contain misinformation on a forum where afaik only one member besides me has real world experience and he has not replied.
Brady, I know you have a lot of experience with maintenance and shop skills. I respect your experience with espresso equipment in general, but as you say lever machines are so rare in the industry that no one knows much about them anymore. On one hand we need a tech at the ready to work on a pump machine, and on the other anybody with an allen wrench and a screwdriver can fix one. Which is it? The same as a lever pretty much. The difference I was pointing out is that you can order a small pile of gaskets and bearings from the lever machine manufacturer along with your machine and these are the only parts that will ever require attention in normal circumstances. Maybe you could do the same with a pump machine with some solenoids and group gaskets and electro valves and flowmeters and buttons and electronic assemblies and whatever parts you have seen fail in years of servicing such machines; I would defer to your expertise as to what it would take to have parts on deck to cover the most common failures. It sounds like either way could work, but I think gaskets and bearings are much cheaper than electronics and such which brings me to the next point: cost.
OK, I just found out that a three group Aurelia is only like 11K which isn't that bad and a three group gb5 retails for 13.5K, and I was under the impression that they were like 15 or something. So you can get two industry's finest Bosco machines for the same price, and that would be my recommendation over the Astoria at a similar price point.
My impressions of pump machine reliability and maintenance comes from the standard recommendations of choosing based on availability of tech support for a given brand in your area, a healthy distrust of electronics and overly complex systems, and the fact that these individual parts are more expensive and available only from the manufacturer or distributors. You could get maintenance parts for a lever from an industrial supply company like grainger, really. The better pump machines have super complex engineering for good reason to address issues like temperature stability and to add desirable features such as pre-infusion capability. If I was stuck in some remote place in Eastern Europe or something and wanted to be sure to have espresso for as long as possible I would choose a lever and not because it looks cool.
The lever machine in your kitchen I would guess to be a europicolla or some other kind of manual lever. I have not played with one, but hear they are incredibly difficult to master. A commercial spring lever is a different beast entirely, beautifully simple and capable of some amazing things considering that their greatest features as far as anyone knows weren't even engineered on purpose but were the result of pure dumb luck.
There is a lot of ego and marketing and branding floating around the coffee industry and discouragingly little solidarity, cooperation and sharing of information. Most of the lever nerds are not even involved in this industry and tend to not venture into coffee shops much because of the perpetual disappointment of bad espresso, but I doubt that they would blame the espresso machine for the situation. Any decent commercial espresso machine can produce great espresso including an old school e61 heat exchange system so out of favor these days. Of course it takes proper training headed up by someone who understands the theory and methodology behind the actions taken. If you want to avoid THAT, just get a superauto.
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Thank you for the more up beat response. I agree with your points. Getting a lever is hardly a free ticket to no hassle maintenance. I just don't like to see them outright dismissed as a viable option or as a gimmick used in crappy shops. Your Elektra shares a characteristic of repeatable pressure profile with commercial spring levers and should be significantly easier to use than the Europicolla that I guessed you had. It still could be challenging to hit ideal brew temps. The accidentally beneficial engineering that I referred to is the way the commercial spring levers attain their uniquely curved brewing temperature profile, which is a result of the engineers trying to find a way to get water from a super-heated boiler that needs to be hot enough to produce steam down to the acceptable brewing temperature range. The super heated water enters the group head which is made of about 25 pounds of solid brass and soaks up the excess heat. They didn't set out to produce a decreasing curved brew temp, or the decreasing curved pressure profile that results from using a spring to produce the water pressure, or pre-infusion capabilities for that matter. It's just this great system that will always be relavant to a few people, and should be respected as a legit avenue for those that would follow that path. Some people even believe the results are superior, all other factors equalized, but I won't go there.
So basically, I agree with you on most counts. The dude I was referring to I don't know, just saw some posts where he was talking about opening a shop or shops in New Zealand where the electrical supply is not reliable, and he got some gas powered spring levers and sounded like he loved them once he started using them. I think it was on this site, but I may be wrong - it happens.
You can literally buy two Boscos for the cost of one high end pump machine, and that would be the final thing if it was my decision, but that's up to the owner. They just ought to have all available info, and I hope this helped with that. For the record, I love my Bosco and am about to order another with one more group than before. It will take two months because they are made by hand to order, and that makes it all the more special to me.
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