Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on February 22, 2010 at 4:10pm

Justin,
Please tell me your joking....is the smiley missing or am I seriously missing something here?
JoeR
--
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Justin Johnson said:

what's probably happening is electron transfer. The added contact with metal is throwing off the flavor profile. You would need to adjust the blend in order to work around the problem, if you can't do that the I would try another coffee altogether.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on February 22, 2010 at 4:11pm

Thanks miKe,
Now I'm on the same electron page...

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

Seriously? Since a double basket has less surface area than a triple basket I'd expect the neutrons cacading off the protons to have a greater effect than errant electrons.

Justin Johnson said:

what's probably happening is electron transfer. The added contact with metal is throwing off the flavor profile. You would need to adjust the blend in order to work around the problem, if you can't do that the I would try another coffee altogether.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Gasaway on February 22, 2010 at 7:56pm

Question

Why is it bad for the espresso puck to come in contact with the screen and screw to create the "Donut" effect.
I heard that some might argue having minimal space between the puck and screen is better for taste.

I'm not asking for whats right and wrong...just a reason.

Anyways I was watching Mike Phillips performance at the WBC this past year.
He dosed 19 grams at one point for his Capps.

If you guys are telling me that contact is bad...I'm not sure I understand this. At 19 grams the puck will most def hit the screen.

I'm just trying to make logical out of this...

http://vimeo.com/4366121 -the Video of Mike

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on February 22, 2010 at 10:15pm

Actually no, Mike used 17g for his straight shots, 18g for his caps', and 19g for his signature drink in which he split those single shots first and second parts of the pour into 2 vessels for different beverages of two different signature drinks each with different complimentary ingredients added. I haven't analyzed the performance to determine the time duration of the different style shots and would be impossible to determine the volumes. Which is to say you cannot say because he used 19g of a particular SO Rwanda for a particular set of signature drinks the same pull would be good for all shots. In fact it wasn't even for the coffee he was using since he used lower dosages for straight and caps, only 19g for an advanced two beverage from one segmented shot beverage course.

I'm not saying a good shot can't be pulled when puck expansion cause the puck to hit the screen a bit. Depends. But as has been said a couple times, try grinding finer and lowering the dosage a bit and see what happens. There is no ONE best dosage or grind or volume or time for all coffees, or necessarily even the same coffee depending on how you want the shot accentuated. But again if you're loosing the high notes, try grinding finer and dosing lower...

You may need to get the temp up a hair too. Maybe down. Also note Mike talked about varying his flush to vary temp...

Matthew Gasaway said:

Question

Why is it bad for the espresso puck to come in contact with the screen and screw to create the "Donut" effect.
I heard that some might argue having minimal space between the puck and screen is better for taste.

I'm not asking for whats right and wrong...just a reason.

Anyways I was watching Mike Phillips performance at the WBC this past year.
He dosed 19 grams at one point for his Capps.

If you guys are telling me that contact is bad...I'm not sure I understand this. At 19 grams the puck will most def hit the screen.

I'm just trying to make logical out of this...

http://vimeo.com/4366121 -the Video of Mike

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Matthew Gasaway on February 22, 2010 at 10:42pm

I was aware of the 17g dose for espresso, 18 for caps, and 19 for signature drink.

My point was just that he's getting great results with higher doses in those double baskets.

It seemed from responses on this topic that 18 grams is WAY to much because it touches the screen. And that I should be dropping the dose.

But here Mike is pulling off higher doses with no problem.

I don't disagree with dropping the dose. I'm just looking for logical reasons here.

Know what I mean?

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

Actually no, Mike used 17g for his straight shots, 18g for his caps', and 19g for his signature drink in which he split those single shots first and second parts of the pour into 2 vessels for different beverages of two different signature drinks each with different complimentary ingredients added. I haven't analyzed the performance to determine the time duration of the different style shots and would be impossible to determine the volumes. Which is to say you cannot say because he used 19g of a particular SO Rwanda for a particular set of signature drinks the same pull would be good for all shots. In fact it wasn't even for the coffee he was using since he used lower dosages for straight and caps, only 19g for an advanced two beverage from one segmented shot beverage course.

I'm not saying a good shot can't be pulled when puck expansion cause the puck to hit the screen a bit. Depends. But as has been said a couple times, try grinding finer and lowering the dosage a bit and see what happens. There is no ONE best dosage or grind or volume or time for all coffees, or necessarily even the same coffee depending on how you want the shot accentuated. But again if you're loosing the high notes, try grinding finer and dosing lower...

You may need to get the temp up a hair too. Maybe down. Also note Mike talked about varying his flush to vary temp...

Matthew Gasaway said:

Question

Why is it bad for the espresso puck to come in contact with the screen and screw to create the "Donut" effect.
I heard that some might argue having minimal space between the puck and screen is better for taste.

I'm not asking for whats right and wrong...just a reason.

Anyways I was watching Mike Phillips performance at the WBC this past year.
He dosed 19 grams at one point for his Capps.

If you guys are telling me that contact is bad...I'm not sure I understand this. At 19 grams the puck will most def hit the screen.

I'm just trying to make logical out of this...

http://vimeo.com/4366121 -the Video of Mike

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on February 22, 2010 at 11:18pm

Onced upon a time I had a tendancy to updose virtually all the time. Then came a coffee I fought and fought changing shot times and higher temp and lower temp (and kept updosing) and kept fighting and tried different baskets and fought and fought. And FINALLY ground finer and dosed lower, pulling a fairly long timed shot (30secondish), still pulling short normale volume and the shot sang.

The logic was in the cup not on screen or paper analyzing it. Insanity is said to be doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. While I like to say sanity is highly over rated in this case I don't. If 19g dose works in a triple but not in a double basket with your coffee then try a dose other than 19g in the double! And try it across a wide range of shot parameters. If the cup results is not where it should be, change parameters, one at a time. Personally I don't care if it takes a 12 or 20 gr dose to make a coffee sing for a given desired result, the results are spoken in the cup.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Gasaway on February 22, 2010 at 11:24pm

I understand your logic.
In fact my espresso today was fantastic when I dropped to a 15-16 gram dose. The difference brought it back to exactly the ball park I'm going for in taste profile.

I'm just looking for an answer as to why some on here think 18+ grams is no no
That and how the puck touching the screen is bad.

Especially after watching Mike's performance.

Just looking for answers...

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on February 22, 2010 at 11:25pm

Do we know for sure he is using NS double baskets? I don't think we do and it's worth looking into.

Point is... if you aren't happy with 19 grams and you keep using 19 grams you are going to keep being unhappy.

To point a little more towards your more recent question, I don't personally know why it is that a higher dose in a double tends to taste muted. But more often than not it does. That's why I suggest not updosing in a double... or just not updosing at all (oh the horror!!)

:0)
-bry

Matthew Gasaway said:

I was aware of the 17g dose for espresso, 18 for caps, and 19 for signature drink.

My point was just that he's getting great results with higher doses in those double baskets.

It seemed from responses on this topic that 18 grams is WAY to much because it touches the screen. And that I should be dropping the dose.

But here Mike is pulling off higher doses with no problem.

I don't disagree with dropping the dose. I'm just looking for logical reasons here.

Know what I mean?

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

Actually no, Mike used 17g for his straight shots, 18g for his caps', and 19g for his signature drink in which he split those single shots first and second parts of the pour into 2 vessels for different beverages of two different signature drinks each with different complimentary ingredients added. I haven't analyzed the performance to determine the time duration of the different style shots and would be impossible to determine the volumes. Which is to say you cannot say because he used 19g of a particular SO Rwanda for a particular set of signature drinks the same pull would be good for all shots. In fact it wasn't even for the coffee he was using since he used lower dosages for straight and caps, only 19g for an advanced two beverage from one segmented shot beverage course.

I'm not saying a good shot can't be pulled when puck expansion cause the puck to hit the screen a bit. Depends. But as has been said a couple times, try grinding finer and lowering the dosage a bit and see what happens. There is no ONE best dosage or grind or volume or time for all coffees, or necessarily even the same coffee depending on how you want the shot accentuated. But again if you're loosing the high notes, try grinding finer and dosing lower...

You may need to get the temp up a hair too. Maybe down. Also note Mike talked about varying his flush to vary temp...

Matthew Gasaway said:

Question

Why is it bad for the espresso puck to come in contact with the screen and screw to create the "Donut" effect.
I heard that some might argue having minimal space between the puck and screen is better for taste.

I'm not asking for whats right and wrong...just a reason.

Anyways I was watching Mike Phillips performance at the WBC this past year.
He dosed 19 grams at one point for his Capps.

If you guys are telling me that contact is bad...I'm not sure I understand this. At 19 grams the puck will most def hit the screen.

I'm just trying to make logical out of this...

http://vimeo.com/4366121 -the Video of Mike

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Matthew Gasaway on February 22, 2010 at 11:29pm

From what I understand, we can't alter the machine in anyway. I brought this up to someone else about using triple baskets for comp...

I'm gonna go check out the rules again...

Bryan Wray said:

Do we know for sure he is using NS double baskets? I don't think we do and it's worth looking into.

Point is... if you aren't happy with 19 grams and you keep using 19 grams you are going to keep being unhappy.

To point a little more towards your more recent question, I don't personally know why it is that a higher dose in a double tends to taste muted. But more often than not it does. That's why I suggest not updosing in a double... or just not updosing at all (oh the horror!!)

:0)
-bry

Matthew Gasaway said:

I was aware of the 17g dose for espresso, 18 for caps, and 19 for signature drink.

My point was just that he's getting great results with higher doses in those double baskets.

It seemed from responses on this topic that 18 grams is WAY to much because it touches the screen. And that I should be dropping the dose.

But here Mike is pulling off higher doses with no problem.

I don't disagree with dropping the dose. I'm just looking for logical reasons here.

Know what I mean?

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

Actually no, Mike used 17g for his straight shots, 18g for his caps', and 19g for his signature drink in which he split those single shots first and second parts of the pour into 2 vessels for different beverages of two different signature drinks each with different complimentary ingredients added. I haven't analyzed the performance to determine the time duration of the different style shots and would be impossible to determine the volumes. Which is to say you cannot say because he used 19g of a particular SO Rwanda for a particular set of signature drinks the same pull would be good for all shots. In fact it wasn't even for the coffee he was using since he used lower dosages for straight and caps, only 19g for an advanced two beverage from one segmented shot beverage course.

I'm not saying a good shot can't be pulled when puck expansion cause the puck to hit the screen a bit. Depends. But as has been said a couple times, try grinding finer and lowering the dosage a bit and see what happens. There is no ONE best dosage or grind or volume or time for all coffees, or necessarily even the same coffee depending on how you want the shot accentuated. But again if you're loosing the high notes, try grinding finer and dosing lower...

You may need to get the temp up a hair too. Maybe down. Also note Mike talked about varying his flush to vary temp...

Matthew Gasaway said:

Question

Why is it bad for the espresso puck to come in contact with the screen and screw to create the "Donut" effect.
I heard that some might argue having minimal space between the puck and screen is better for taste.

I'm not asking for whats right and wrong...just a reason.

Anyways I was watching Mike Phillips performance at the WBC this past year.
He dosed 19 grams at one point for his Capps.

If you guys are telling me that contact is bad...I'm not sure I understand this. At 19 grams the puck will most def hit the screen.

I'm just trying to make logical out of this...

http://vimeo.com/4366121 -the Video of Mike

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike Sabol on February 23, 2010 at 9:11am

Mathew - The reason coffee touching the screen is "bad" is that it changes the way the water pressure is distributed in the basket. The puck, at first, acts like a barrier to water. When the machine is first turned on the water wants to take the path of least resistance. If there is some "head space" between the puck and the screen that little gap will fill in with water first, before the puck swells, and provide an even pressure across the entire surface of the puck. The even pressure leads to the water moving through the puck at an even rate and you end up with even extraction. If there is no "head space" then when the machine is turned on the first water immeadiately hits the puck, with no chance of even distribution, and the pressure of the pump just forces the water straight down. Channeling. Water does not come out evenly from the group head. I've yet to see a machine do this. The flow rate of the water is so restricted that is comes out in a random pattern from the group screen. Just turn on the group without a portafilter and try and predict where the first drop will come from. I would bet if you charted your observations you would find that the first drop could be anywhere and almost never the same place twice. If there is no headspace the water will force it's way down from that spot. If there is headspace then the water will form a layer across the whole puck and work it's way down evenly.

As for the barista champion's results I would argue that the dosing/grinding/tamping method he was using allowed for some headspace, regardless of the dose weight. The Aurellia also has a very pronounced pre-infusion which means the whole puck doesn't get hit with the full pressure right away. If you are using a machine without pre-infusion then you might be seeing that difference. A puck that is saturated before it is hit with full pressure will act differently than a puck that is hit right away with full pressure. The head space is probably more important in the latter case.

I hope this helps.

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Permalink Reply by Justin Johnson on February 23, 2010 at 11:56am

l was referring to the additional metal from switching from a naked to a spouted. There's a heck of alot more brass that the coffee is in contact with.

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Permalink Reply by Chris on February 23, 2010 at 4:12pm

Matthew Gasaway said:

Question

Why is it bad for the espresso puck to come in contact with the screen and screw to create the "Donut" effect.
Anyways I was watching Mike Phillips performance at the WBC this past year.
He dosed 19 grams at one point for his Capps.

If you guys are telling me that contact is bad...I'm not sure I understand this. At 19 grams the puck will most def hit the screen.

Lots of dispersion screens a gently curved. If you make contact with the dry puck (contact prior to the start of the pull) it can clog up the center of the screen, and all the water starts to cascade around that area at the edges and extracts there first. Donut extraction, or ring-around-the-portafilter. It's bad because the puck extracts unevenly, edge first. The edges tend to get over-extracted, and the center, under-exctracted.
Another pitfall with dosing too high is that you can break the surface of the puck if it makes contact when you lock in. If the surface of the puck touches the dispersion screen, and then you twist it into place, it'll crack your perfectly tamped puck, and the cracks will provide a place of far less resistance to the water rushing in at nine Bar, and most of the puck will be seriously under-extrated.
And finally, I can get eighteen grams of Black Cat in my basket, but only sixteen and a half of B&B's Dancing Goat. The last SO I got form Barefoot would let me cram almost nineteen grams before I started losing headspace, but the SO I got from PT's topped out at sixteen-ish.

Different coffees act differently, and must be dialed in individually. If they were always all the same, we could dial in our shots and then weld the adjustment ring. ; >

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