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Permalink Reply by Chris Cockrell on February 1, 2010 at 6:41pm

I don't think the passage is cautioning those utilizing "silent prayer", only those seeking attention from man - they have their reward. Please tell us how pre-written prayer can be an expression of your heart. Why do you "pray scripture" and how does that agree with what scripture says about the purpose and use of prayer??? I'm sure many out there are familur with this.

All this seems counter productive in the every challenging task of getting customers into your shop to buy coffee given the make up of the "general" public....

Chris



Chris Hooton said:

I don't think the intent of such a liturgy is to show off in front of the rest of the shop. I could envision myself using the liturgy silently, or leading private corporate worship experiences around the espresso machine. For what is is worth, I have come to view pre-written prayers as sometimes more powerful in expressing the thoughts of my heart than an extemporaneous prayer, especially when praying scripture. The psalms and the "Lord's Prayer" are useful when engaged with the heart, but, I agree with you that praying by rote is unhelpful.

snip

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Permalink Reply by Chris Hooton on February 1, 2010 at 7:33pm

Chris,

You are absolutely right, if being a Christian in business degrades to making a spectacle out expressions of faith, then the faith and the shop would be denigrated. Even "Christian" coffee shops rub me the wrong way. Yet, as a personal exercise it can help me integrate intimacy with God into my daily work routine. I am inspired by the ideas of "Practicing the Presence of God" offered by a 17 century cook in a monastery known as Brother Lawrence.

As far as praying scripture goes, probably the most common form of praying the scripture is praying what is known as the "Lord's prayer" (Matthew 6:9-13). Also, the psalms are really the prayer book of Israel and the church. I have come to find that praying them powerful, though it took some time to go from reading them to praying with my heart. That is the difference between "meaningless repetition" and praying. We impart meaning to our praying of scripture as our hearts engage with the words and ideas. Our belief that scripture is the inspired word of God also makes praying scripture meaningful.

A thought that often captures me when praying is that the Holy Spirit is intimately involved. I find prayer my prayer at its best when I have an ear open to the Spirit and allow the Spirit to talk to God's self through me - as I express the heart of God. I suspect that is what it means to pray in Jesus' name - praying in line with his heart. When another person writes a prayer that is pregnant with the things close to the heart of God, they have the ability at times to express the longings of my heart with words my soul may be grasping for. That is why they can be powerful, but that power is only to the extent that my own soul is engaged in the prayer.

Does that make any sense? Have I expressed myself so as to be understood?

Chris Cockrell said:

I don't think the passage is cautioning those utilizing "silent prayer", only those seeking attention from man - they have their reward. Please tell us how pre-written prayer can be an expression of your heart. Why do you "pray scripture" and how does that agree with what scripture says about the purpose and use of prayer??? I'm sure many out there are familur with this.

All this seems counter productive in the every challenging task of getting customers into your shop to buy coffee given the make up of the "general" public....

Chris



Chris Hooton said:

I don't think the intent of such a liturgy is to show off in front of the rest of the shop. I could envision myself using the liturgy silently, or leading private corporate worship experiences around the espresso machine. For what is is worth, I have come to view pre-written prayers as sometimes more powerful in expressing the thoughts of my heart than an extemporaneous prayer, especially when praying scripture. The psalms and the "Lord's Prayer" are useful when engaged with the heart, but, I agree with you that praying by rote is unhelpful.

snip

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Permalink Reply by Chris Cockrell on February 1, 2010 at 8:19pm

I'm not sure I've seen a "Christian" Coffee shop. I would like to . As far as praying the Lords Prayer, Didn't Jesus say this to his apostiles? At that time, the Kingdom hadn't come yet. For us today, seeing as how the Kingdom is now come, how can one keep praying for something that has already come to pass? The items in that prayer such as recognizing from whom it is we recieve our daily bread and on forgiveness are reminders that without Gods mercy and love, we would have nothing.

I find that simply repeating something pre-written keeps me from the growth expected of me in developing deeper more meaningful, personal prayer. As scripture holds the path to, and is the owners manual and pattern for a Christian life, I look to it for patterns for my own personal prayer life as well. It guides my life and in it, my walk in life (work as well). Assripture teaches, I strive to live at peace with all man as best I can. Christ-like, Kindness, love for mankind - not for the sin they enjoy.

Having only a roasting business now, I have limited contact with customers of the drinking kind...they come to the market and buy and leave until next week. I do my best to share kindness to them and a quality product...they keep coming back and perhaps I can be an influence on them for the better...coffee being what brought us together in the first place.

Good discusion.

Chris


Chris Hooton said:

Chris,

You are absolutely right, snip

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Permalink Reply by Chris Hooton on February 1, 2010 at 8:33pm

I like what you say about growth, and that is where God tailors our experiences. I come from a tradition that doesn't have much to do with liturgy. I plateaued in my spiritual growth regarding prayer - I got stuck - with only extemporaneous prayer. Liturgy and exploring other forms of prayer has injected new life into my practices of prayer.

Blessings on you and your spiritual journey.

Chris Cockrell said:

I'm not sure I've seen a "Christian" Coffee shop. I would like to . As far as praying the Lords Prayer, Didn't Jesus say this to his apostiles? At that time, the Kingdom hadn't come yet. For us today, seeing as how the Kingdom is now come, how can one keep praying for something that has already come to pass? The items in that prayer such as recognizing from whom it is we recieve our daily bread and on forgiveness are reminders that without Gods mercy and love, we would have nothing.

I find that simply repeating something pre-written keeps me from the growth expected of me in developing deeper more meaningful, personal prayer. As scripture is the owners manual and pattern for a Christian life, I look to it for patterns for my own personal prayer life as well. It guides my life and in it, my walk in life (work as well). Assripture teaches, I strive to live at peace with all man as best I can. Christ-like, Kindness, love for mankind - not for the sin they enjoy.

Good discusion.

Chris


Chris Hooton said:

Chris,

You are absolutely right, snip

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Permalink Reply by Aaron Duckworth on February 1, 2010 at 9:49pm

What a fantastic discussion! I was blogging a couple of weeks ago about how "Christian" coffeehouses usually annoy the heck out of me because it is nearly always some of the worst coffee in town! Chris DeMarse asked about how functionally speaking, we can bring our faith to that cafe with us. I have been thinking quite a bit about exactly this over the past month or so so I'll throw out a couple of ideas. A) we have to be excellent in what we do (Chris Cockrell correctly cited Colossians 3). Whether is coffee, sporting goods, accounting or flowers, especially if we're going to bring God into it, it needs to be the best that it can be B) Jesus nearly always used common, everyday things to describe spiritual things. Can we not do the same thing with coffee without sounding cheesy? How many baristas do we know that are almost offensive in how they dispense their knowledge even though they are right? How many Christians do we know who do the same thing? The specifics are different, but the principle is the same.

How quickly we judge the double shot in a large cup guy who cleans out your half and half pitcher and has the nerve to ask you to refill it (for the third day in a row), yet we turn around and gossip about him, bringing judgment on ourselves! Are we not worse then he twice over for judging then gossiping? I think that there are a GREAT many ways to be relevant to culture in a coffee setting. I've actually got something cooking that deals with exactly this that I am a little reluctant to post just yet as I'm still praying my way through it. I will say this though, my church just ordered a paddle grouped FB80 for a cafe that we are opening later this summer as part of a large campus expansion and we have no plans to keep it all to ourselves.

If anyone is interested in that specific project, I wrote about it on my blog but won't bore everyone here with it. And if you're REALLY interested, I just started a Google Wave about it with some of the Kansas City coffee peeps. If you want in on that conversation, again, let me know as I have several invites to spare.

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