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Permalink Reply by Kevin Ayers on February 23, 2009 at 3:29pm

What coffee are you using? What kind of espresso machine/grinder setup? 4-5 days is usually plenty of rest. What type of container is it being allowed to rest in?

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Permalink Reply by Mr. F on February 23, 2009 at 8:53pm

Hi-- Kevin, explain what you mean by "rest." Don't most roasters ship out beans as soon as they are packed? I have always had better luck, i.e., produced the nicest, longest lasting crema, within 0-1 days of roasting. My shop orders from out of town, so our beans are usually 2 days old when they arrive, and sometimes 4 or 5 days old by the time we get to the newest batch. I find the 4-5 day wait to be problematic, producing very little, short-lived crema. One day, my supplier drove fresh beans down to the shop on the day they were roasted (they had missed our order that week), and I drew the most beautiful shots I'd ever gotten out of their espresso that day. You should know, these are vac-packed plastic bags with the one-way valve that should allow gases out, but no oxygen in.
Maybe I should ask my roaster how long the beans sit before they are shipped... I could be wrong about how recently the beans have been roasted once they arrive.

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Permalink Reply by Dale Harris on February 23, 2009 at 8:59pm

coffee is packed in one way valve bags which i believe to increase required degassing period - therefore opened bag on saturday to use on monday with result of tragic crema

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Permalink Reply by Vino on February 23, 2009 at 9:11pm

dude!i believe in how you stored your coffee it must be in air tight container, they are right your pack must have a one way valve..it also depend on the blend of coffee how many percent is the arabica and robusta..as far as i know robusta is the one who produces best crema, if your using pure arabica it has a crema but you can't compare to robusta..that's why they blend the arabica to robusta to produces best crema they need..check your grind,there's alot of factors to look on..hope this will help.

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Permalink Reply by Tyler Stevens on February 23, 2009 at 10:21pm

Robusta will produce more crema, but it will dissipate quicker. I have never had luck with any robusta used higher than 5 percent in a blend. Also contact your roaster. There are alots of new crop coming in. Maybe he changed something on you.

It sounds like your espresso has had plenty of resting time.
Have you replaced your burr grinders recently?
What type of machine are you using?

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Ayers on February 23, 2009 at 10:35pm

I have never seen espresso pull a good shot 0-1 days after roasting. All I've ever seen that close to roast date is huge bubbles followed by rapidly dissipating crema. If your bags from roaster don't include a roasted on date, it's something you might want to ask about. What I mean by rest is degassing, which is "ususally" a "recommended" 72hrs. Everythings open to interpretation though... My guess is Dales problem lies in the machine or grinder.

George F. said:

Hi-- Kevin, explain what you mean by "rest." Don't most roasters ship out beans as soon as they are packed? I have always had better luck, i.e., produced the nicest, longest lasting crema, within 0-1 days of roasting. My shop orders from out of town, so our beans are usually 2 days old when they arrive, and sometimes 4 or 5 days old by the time we get to the newest batch. I find the 4-5 day wait to be problematic, producing very little, short-lived crema. One day, my supplier drove fresh beans down to the shop on the day they were roasted (they had missed our order that week), and I drew the most beautiful shots I'd ever gotten out of their espresso that day. You should know, these are vac-packed plastic bags with the one-way valve that should allow gases out, but no oxygen in.
Maybe I should ask my roaster how long the beans sit before they are shipped... I could be wrong about how recently the beans have been roasted once they arrive.

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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on February 24, 2009 at 6:24am

side note: really hot cups kill crema, same as cold.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Shipley on February 24, 2009 at 7:37am

We try really hard to use our espresso at 3-7 days out of the roaster. I find that before three days you get large CO2 bubbles in the crema, too fresh also makes it hard on the barista to keep the grind adjusted correctly.

You could be having problems with your machine, if you temp at the group head is off that will cause problems.

Lastly did your roaster change blends, are the really consistent? Have they not maintained their equipment? If their roasts are going long the resultant drying of the bean can reduce crema.

There's lots of variables to consider, honestly though at 4-5 days your beans really shouldn't be stale.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. F on February 24, 2009 at 2:07pm

Ah, thanks Kevin-- I will definitely ask them about roast dates from now on. I tend to think (oh, and sorry if I'm hijacking your question here, Dale) that a lot of my crema issues are also due to the grinder or machine. Are there any reliable espresso "tests" out there that can be done using the same suspect machines? It seems I can only draw really nice shots for about 3 days out of every few weeks. Or do I need to somehow sneak my beans into an other shop and test them on their equipment? That's about as likely to happen as my boss buying a new machine...

Kevin Ayers said:

I have never seen espresso pull a good shot 0-1 days after roasting. All I've ever seen that close to roast date is huge bubbles followed by rapidly dissipating crema. If your bags from roaster don't include a roasted on date, it's something you might want to ask about. What I mean by rest is degassing, which is "ususally" a "recommended" 72hrs. Everythings open to interpretation though... My guess is Dales problem lies in the machine or grinder.

George F. said:

Hi-- Kevin, explain what you mean by "rest." Don't most roasters ship out beans as soon as they are packed? I have always had better luck, i.e., produced the nicest, longest lasting crema, within 0-1 days of roasting. My shop orders from out of town, so our beans are usually 2 days old when they arrive, and sometimes 4 or 5 days old by the time we get to the newest batch. I find the 4-5 day wait to be problematic, producing very little, short-lived crema. One day, my supplier drove fresh beans down to the shop on the day they were roasted (they had missed our order that week), and I drew the most beautiful shots I'd ever gotten out of their espresso that day. You should know, these are vac-packed plastic bags with the one-way valve that should allow gases out, but no oxygen in.
Maybe I should ask my roaster how long the beans sit before they are shipped... I could be wrong about how recently the beans have been roasted once they arrive.

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Permalink Reply by Trickster on February 24, 2009 at 2:24pm

Dale,

When you said "opened bag on saturday to use on monday" did you mean you left it open over the weekend? If so, that could be part of your problem. Most home roasters I know leave their beans open to the air for a few hours before sealing in a one-way valve bag or jar.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Ayers on February 24, 2009 at 4:41pm

What type of machine are we talking here? Has the water temp at the group been tested with a thermocouple of some kind? What about the grinder burrs? Have they been changed any time recently? 3 days out of every few weeks for good shots is pretty sparse. How often does your shop order coffee? so many variables...

George F. said:

Ah, thanks Kevin-- I will definitely ask them about roast dates from now on. I tend to think (oh, and sorry if I'm hijacking your question here, Dale) that a lot of my crema issues are also due to the grinder or machine. Are there any reliable espresso "tests"...

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Permalink Reply by Brady on February 24, 2009 at 5:32pm

Dale Harris said:

coffee is packed in one way valve bags which i believe to increase required degassing period - therefore opened bag on saturday to use on monday with result of tragic crema

Dale, to weigh in on this (and only this) aspect of your question - I've always had great luck with just letting the beans rest in their still-sealed one-way valve bags for a couple of days. I open the bag right before topping off the hopper and dump the remainder in a sealed 8qt cambro (the tall square one). I will probably be trying John P's symmetrical crystal field soon though.... wait, that was another thread. Never a crema problem as long as it doesn't get too old. Good luck.

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