Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jon Mitchell on March 24, 2009 at 7:26am

I guess my only concern with going too small is that I'll basically open up a place like every other place in town. Small, cramped, with no sense of privacy. I hear from a lot of my potential customers that they want to be able to go and have a discussion with someone without feeling like everyone can hear them. Maybe 1700-2000 sq. ft might make more sense.

Jesse -D-> said:

yep, that is pretty big. Big spaces tend to feel empty even if you have a decent amount people hanging around. You want to portray a popular spot, so it can't feel like a ghost town. That does look like a great spot, and I like th doors, but it is f-ing huge. So you need to fill the extra space with somthing, or convince the qner to turn it into 2 or 3 units. If you had the main door and the first 1 or 2 bays, and the owner could make more profit off of his/her space, then I would say go for it.

You have the right demographic to make a specialty shop work, start small then grow.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on March 24, 2009 at 7:56am

What you are talking about is as much a design issue as it is a space issue. Your shop in a garage is not going to have great acoustics unless you work with sound dampening. I agree with your customers, I hate it when I am trying to have a conversation and there is so much noise that I feel like I am underwater. But this can happen just as easily (sometimes more so) in a large "industrial" space. If you go with this space and privacy is your goal, then you need booths, wall hangings, cieling tiles that manage sound, and a good stereo that will have small speakers placed throughout your cafe. Sound management is a difficult thing to master but it is very important.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 24, 2009 at 10:23am

FWIW, our shop is 1700sf, which was considered huge by most of the people we spoke with prior to open. We wanted at least 1200sf. We have plenty of room for a variety of things but struggle just a little with acoustics. It has worked well for us, though having our rent be 50% higher than it could have been is a bit of a kick in the teeth sometimes. Every other place (that's still open) is small for a reason... you gotta do that much more business to make a big space work. Not saying it can't be done, but it is just that much more challenging.

Jesse is absolutely right - proper space design will give you the mix of open and intimate spaces that you'd like. Smaller doesn't have to be cramped - only if the owner tries to cram in as many tables as humanly possible. Its a delicate balance.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jon Mitchell on March 24, 2009 at 11:30am

Brady and Jesse, I think you're right. A smaller space doesn't have to "feel" smaller if it's layed out correctly. I need to be thinking of the best ways to utilize the space the most. I agree, booths can lend to privacy, except I'm not a huge fan of the way they look. Do you guys know of any places that have booths that "look cool" for a lack of a better term?

Brady said:

FWIW, our shop is 1700sf, which was considered huge by most of the people we spoke with prior to open. We wanted at least 1200sf. We have plenty of room for a variety of things but struggle just a little with acoustics. It has worked well for us, though having our rent be 50% higher than it could have been is a bit of a kick in the teeth sometimes. Every other place (that's still open) is small for a reason... you gotta do that much more business to make a big space work. Not saying it can't be done, but it is just that much more challenging.

Jesse is absolutely right - proper space design will give you the mix of open and intimate spaces that you'd like. Smaller doesn't have to be cramped - only if the owner tries to cram in as many tables as humanly possible. Its a delicate balance.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dave on March 24, 2009 at 4:34pm

I think you've gotten a lot of great info and ideas. Here's somethings to keep in mind:

- Figure out who your market is (which it sounds like you've done) and target your advertisement towards them.
- Be aware that since you're in a smaller college town, businesses in general fluctuate with the school year. So financially prepare for the leaner times of the year during the fatter.
- Don't stick to the census data. They only take the census every 10 years and the in between times are purely an estimate based on sample that can be argued is no where near accurate enough (i.e., a sample of the US sample versus a local sample). If you're using statistics, try to limit it to your area as much as possible. Try to avoid using national statistics for local things. Your local market isn't necessarily reflected in the sample used to come up with national statistics.
- With the traffic count being about 5000 cars/day, and considering people coming in from surrounding businesses doesn't seem like it it would be very much, and with the other guy still in business, I think that the the 255 people/day is a little on the high side. UNLESS!!! You use all that extra space to make it a destination. Again...figure our who your market is and target them. Make people aware that they should go out of their way to get it.
- When building your start up budget, don't be afraid to raise the cost of marketing/advertising above what you think you'll need. A lot of what I've seen is that people undervalue marketing. Because of this, if extra money is needed to cover building expenses, marketing and advertising is the first pool to be pulled from.
- I think leaving the garage doors in place is a great idea, just don't leave all that space there. In my opinion, its more what you do with the space you have than it is the size of the space. Also...be aware of the insects. Think about having some sort of bug netting up so that you still get the wide open feeling and the breeze flowing through, but at the same time you don't get bugs flying in to peoples coffee.

Keep in mind that if you can please 75% of the people with what you come up with, you're doing pretty damn good.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dan Dean on March 24, 2009 at 4:59pm

Hey guys,

Not sure if you are done with this thread or not. But a couple of other things to consider. Check with your local Health Dept. about your plans. Can the rollup doors stay? - can you open them during biz hours without a screen of some sort? What about the cost of tearing up concrete inside to get drain lines to your counter? This can cost a lot and if you have to go any distance at all - it could destory a budget in a hurry. Are there other fees associated with the lease for insurance, taxes and maintenance? Were the current restooms used for the public? Do they meet all the codes for public restrooms - may have update costs there as well. One last thing - is how do you pay for all the construction? Another loan? - make sure you get a good handle on those costs and figure that into how many customers you will need a day. Just some more thoughts - things I didn't know about but found out renovating our small space from a retail setup to restaurant. Good luck and have fun!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mason Crews on March 24, 2009 at 5:52pm

I'm a Developer in Az and i would like to say that 3,000 sf is definitely doable! I am opening a Coffee Shop that's a little bigger and the real estate I've secured is surrounded by a lot of money. One thing I've found though, people have to skimp sometimes on the build out if it's a large space. Keep in mind you must fill a large space so you will most likely have a to spend more money. I think w/ proper spacial planning, great theme, and great marketing plan will definitely bring the people.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 24, 2009 at 5:59pm

Mason Crews said:

I'm a Developer in Az and i would like to say that 3,000 sf is definitely doable! I am opening a Coffee Shop that's a little bigger and the real estate I've secured is surrounded by a lot of money. One thing I've found though, people have to skimp sometimes on the build out if it's a large space. Keep in mind you must fill a large space so you will most likely have a to spend more money. I think w/ proper spacial planning, great theme, and great marketing plan will definitely bring the people.

Mason, could you maybe clarify that a bit? Are these observations based on a successful coffee shop (having passed the 1 year mark) or are these just your thoughts on the matter? Both are certainly great additions to discussions like this, but I think the distinction is relevant.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jon Mitchell on March 25, 2009 at 7:49am

Hey Dan, all good questions and some of them (construction related) I've already asked my self. Most of the spaces I've looked at that would be ideal for a coffee shop will require busting up concrete to put drain lines in. This is just something I've accepted. Who typically just walks into a situation where the space used to be a coffee shop?

I'd be interested to hear more about what you experienced and what you learned from turning your retail space into a restaurant space. Did the property owner help out with any of that expense? I'm under the belief that if improvements to an owners space is required, especially improvements that I can't take with me (plumbing, electrical) that that owner should be willing to put some money into that space or at the very least give me a huge break on rent until I can recover some of the costs of making upgrades to THEIR property.

Please elaborate on your experience when you have some time. I'd be very interested to learn from it. ==Thanks.

Dan Dean said:

Hey guys,

Not sure if you are done with this thread or not. But a couple of other things to consider. Check with your local Health Dept. about your plans. Can the rollup doors stay? - can you open them during biz hours without a screen of some sort? What about the cost of tearing up concrete inside to get drain lines to your counter? This can cost a lot and if you have to go any distance at all - it could destory a budget in a hurry. Are there other fees associated with the lease for insurance, taxes and maintenance? Were the current restooms used for the public? Do they meet all the codes for public restrooms - may have update costs there as well. One last thing - is how do you pay for all the construction? Another loan? - make sure you get a good handle on those costs and figure that into how many customers you will need a day. Just some more thoughts - things I didn't know about but found out renovating our small space from a retail setup to restaurant. Good luck and have fun!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jon Mitchell on March 25, 2009 at 7:50am

What's up Mason! You and I were in class together at Bellissimo. Great to hear from you. Update me on how your project is coming along? Where are you at in the process?

Mason Crews said:

I'm a Developer in Az and i would like to say that 3,000 sf is definitely doable! I am opening a Coffee Shop that's a little bigger and the real estate I've secured is surrounded by a lot of money. One thing I've found though, people have to skimp sometimes on the build out if it's a large space. Keep in mind you must fill a large space so you will most likely have a to spend more money. I think w/ proper spacial planning, great theme, and great marketing plan will definitely bring the people.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jon Mitchell on March 25, 2009 at 7:55am

Great suggestions Dave. Thanks! How would you recommend that I make my place a destination? That's the idea that I have for sure. I don't want to be just a drive thru. I want my place to be a place that people set out to go on purpose because it's the coolest place in town.

Didn't think about the bugs... good idea.

Interested in the "Destination" idea you mentioned.

Dave said:

I think you've gotten a lot of great info and ideas. Here's somethings to keep in mind:

- Figure out who your market is (which it sounds like you've done) and target your advertisement towards them.
- Be aware that since you're in a smaller college town, businesses in general fluctuate with the school year. So financially prepare for the leaner times of the year during the fatter.
- Don't stick to the census data. They only take the census every 10 years and the in between times are purely an estimate based on sample that can be argued is no where near accurate enough (i.e., a sample of the US sample versus a local sample). If you're using statistics, try to limit it to your area as much as possible. Try to avoid using national statistics for local things. Your local market isn't necessarily reflected in the sample used to come up with national statistics.
- With the traffic count being about 5000 cars/day, and considering people coming in from surrounding businesses doesn't seem like it it would be very much, and with the other guy still in business, I think that the the 255 people/day is a little on the high side. UNLESS!!! You use all that extra space to make it a destination. Again...figure our who your market is and target them. Make people aware that they should go out of their way to get it.
- When building your start up budget, don't be afraid to raise the cost of marketing/advertising above what you think you'll need. A lot of what I've seen is that people undervalue marketing. Because of this, if extra money is needed to cover building expenses, marketing and advertising is the first pool to be pulled from.
- I think leaving the garage doors in place is a great idea, just don't leave all that space there. In my opinion, its more what you do with the space you have than it is the size of the space. Also...be aware of the insects. Think about having some sort of bug netting up so that you still get the wide open feeling and the breeze flowing through, but at the same time you don't get bugs flying in to peoples coffee.

Keep in mind that if you can please 75% of the people with what you come up with, you're doing pretty damn good.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dan Dean on March 25, 2009 at 12:14pm

Jon, I wound up buying the building. I have a pretty jaded view of commercial landlords - we found many to be incredibly stubborn and unwilling to work with us. We have one of those small cramped places - but it has great character and people love it.
A lot has changed since we were in the hunt for space. I would have to think today the tables have turned a bit in your favor. From my jaded view point - I would do everything you can to get the landlord to give you many free months of rent while they build your space for you! My view of commercial real estate agents is only slightly better than that of landlords - but today - they should be tripping over themselves at the prospect of leasing space and should be willing to beat up a landlord pretty good on your behalf.
As far as our specific building - it is over 100 years old. We pretty much rebuilt it. Rebuilt part of the foundation, poured a basement floor with new footings, jacked the floor up three inches, installed new electrical, plumbing, heating, kitchen, bathroom. It was crazy as we had never done anything like that before.
We have been open just about 18 months. We average between 80 and 120 customers a day - well below the 200 I was hoping for - but the average ticket is a bit higher and we are getting by. And it is way more fun and rewarding than I had imagined. And someday - if it doesn't kill me in the process - I will own the thing :)


Jon Mitchell said:

Hey Dan, all good questions and some of them (construction related) I've already asked my self. Most of the spaces I've looked at that would be ideal for a coffee shop will require busting up concrete to put drain lines in. This is just something I've accepted. Who typically just walks into a situation where the space used to be a coffee shop?

I'd be interested to hear more about what you experienced and what you learned from turning your retail space into a restaurant space. Did the property owner help out with any of that expense? I'm under the belief that if improvements to an owners space is required, especially improvements that I can't take with me (plumbing, electrical) that that owner should be willing to put some money into that space or at the very least give me a huge break on rent until I can recover some of the costs of making upgrades to THEIR property.

Please elaborate on your experience when you have some time. I'd be very interested to learn from it. ==Thanks.

Dan Dean said:

Hey guys,

Not sure if you are done with this thread or not. But a couple of other things to consider. Check with your local Health Dept. about your plans. Can the rollup doors stay? - can you open them during biz hours without a screen of some sort? What about the cost of tearing up concrete inside to get drain lines to your counter? This can cost a lot and if you have to go any distance at all - it could destory a budget in a hurry. Are there other fees associated with the lease for insurance, taxes and maintenance? Were the current restooms used for the public? Do they meet all the codes for public restrooms - may have update costs there as well. One last thing - is how do you pay for all the construction? Another loan? - make sure you get a good handle on those costs and figure that into how many customers you will need a day. Just some more thoughts - things I didn't know about but found out renovating our small space from a retail setup to restaurant. Good luck and have fun!

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• Next ›
• Page