Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Phil Proteau on September 16, 2010 at 12:39pm

Question 1- The pressure and temperature in these commercial boilers experience small dips when steaming and generally recover very rapidly. The heating element turns on during steaming and if you watch the pressure gauge, you will see that they loose very little and come back up very quick. Water in the heat exchange cannot be expected to loose temperature as fast as the pressure is lost in the steam boiler, because the heat doesn't have time to dissipate before the pressure comes back up.

Question 2- What I mean by genuine pre-infusion is, a small amount of brew water is dumped on the coffee bed before the full pressure of the pump squeezes in on it. In a Linea, if you use the volumetric flow meter, and only if the electronic pre-infusion is programed to activate, you get full 9 bar pressure for one second, then the pump turns off for one second, then the pump turns on again. So you have pressurized infusion followed by pressurized extraction. If you use the continuous flow button, the bypass toggle switch, or you have a semiautomatic, you don't even get this electronic pulse. Rather, you get a full-on 9 bar blast right from the start.

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on September 16, 2010 at 2:29pm

Make it a business expense that you store in your kitchen! (Mine's the old retro style "garbage can" body wrap:) My Bric' works quite well for small catering events too, fed via flojet and accumulator. You only need 35sec post shot group flush to recover for next shot "flush-n-go". Flush-n-go= flash flush every shot down to temp, lock and pull. In jammin' use only talkin a short flush from brief "flash", though I do use Eric's thermometer which is easier than counting from end of flash. (Also tested and PASSED the WBC torture test without shot temp fade:) And no prob' steaming while pulling. Caveat only offer 8oz bevs catering 'cuz wee 1.5L steam boiler takes too long to steam for even a 12oz latte (ie takes longer to steam than pull shot, screw that!).

Paul Yates said:

Thanks a lot, Mike! Now I want a Fiorenzato Bricoletta! That's a really nice machine! :)

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on September 16, 2010 at 4:52pm

Actually no, Heat Exchanger machines are more energy efficient than Double Boiler machines, unless you turn off the steam boiler on a DB, which ain't gonna happen in a commercial environment.

Jeff Jaworski said:

In terms of sheer efficiency, double boilers hand heat exchangers their asses.

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Permalink Reply by Brady on September 16, 2010 at 5:22pm

A couple of thoughts, totally skirting the HX vs DB question.

What is the service support for Faema and La Marzocco in your area? Faema support in some areas (including ours) is spotty, and since parts are distributed through the La Cimbali network things can be really difficult.

Pass on the autosteam option. You can do better with a traditional wand. Plus, the autowands give you many more moving parts and controls to fail. Maintenance will be more expensive for a machine with an auto wand (unless it just sits there unused).

How old is the Linea?

On the PID question, I submit for your consideration the Competition Aurelia. HX + PID to good effect. (OK, maybe I won't skirt the hX vs DB thing...)

Me? I like hX machines, but I'd go for the Linea.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on September 16, 2010 at 6:21pm

Mac or PC. I once heard someone on this list refer to the difference between HX and DB this way. He was referring to the Competition Aurelia next to any LM PID or not.
Bring in new people to your shop and in not much time they are rocking and rolling on the Aurelia. LM shop owners would generally like to give more time to new baristas before they turn them loose on the front end with LM's
Jeff, I take it you have not met or worked with my best new staff "Aurelia" There is a distinct reason these machines were chosen for the WBC. I think the tests they put these baby's through are pretty comprehensive.
That said I would not turn down a nice new LM.
Renier,
As to your question that started this morphed thread. I owned and used a Faema Legend for a year. Thank God for warranty's. Delano's in Seattle took it back because of some design flaws and replaced it with a new Aurelia 2 grp. w/ auto wand. As Brady points out and so did my tech that installed it, forget about it. I use maybe in a pinch with to go drinks if there are 3or4 the same.
I would go with the LM given the choice you present here.
Brady, thank you for the most common but uncommon here sometimes sence when it comes to the most basic need of maintenance. Renier, if I had a third choice for a busy setting I would go with the Competition Aurelia. As strange as it looks, sure is nice to slip a 20oz cup under the pf for over all speed work.
Just my long winded 2cents.
Joseph

Brady said:

A couple of thoughts, totally skirting the HX vs DB question.

What is the service support for Faema and La Marzocco in your area? Faema support in some areas (including ours) is spotty, and since parts are distributed through the La Cimbali network things can be really difficult.

Pass on the autosteam option. You can do better with a traditional wand. Plus, the autowands give you many more moving parts and controls to fail. Maintenance will be more expensive for a machine with an auto wand (unless it just sits there unused).

How old is the Linea?

On the PID question, I submit for your consideration the Competition Aurelia. HX + PID to good effect. (OK, maybe I won't skirt the hX vs DB thing...)

Me? I like hX machines, but I'd go for the Linea.

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Permalink Reply by Renier Geldenhuys on September 17, 2010 at 2:40am

Thanks to every one that has taken there time to reply to my post.

Here is what I am going to do:
I am going to visit the suppliers of the La Marzocco and Faema tomorrow. I will make up 'n list of all the questions asked especially about the refurbishing and the age of the Linea. I will also be doing a bit of research on PID - the cost and if there is someone South Africa can assist me with it.
I have also decided to go and have a look at the NS Aurelia.
I suspect it will all come down to gut-feel, and the support offered by the supplier. At the moment I am thinking of going with the Linea, I am a bit worried about expensive breakdowns sins it is a secondhand machine, but I will get all the info regarding the refurbishing tomorrow.

Renier

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Permalink Reply by Shadow on September 17, 2010 at 6:54am

Have mentioned it here previously, but here goes again. I've had the pleasure of using two La Marzocco machines, a 3 group Linea and a 2 group FB/80. The Linea wasn't my fave by any means. Each of the 3 groups had varying water flow rates as well as lousy temperature stability. Could've been the refurb job that was done on it or maybe I just didn't understand the machine all that well. BUT did work on it daily for 7-8 months and was hard pressed to ever get anything I'd call great from it regardless of what tinkering was done. Now the FB/80 was a great machine. Much more refined than the Linea and much better consistency based on the time I spent on it. Really like the fit/finish of the LMs.

My daily driver is a 2 group Aurelia and I love using it. Now it does have some plastic on it, but the machine has a nice look to it IMO and the fit/finish is quite nice. Under the hood it's all business and I really like the parts layout and fairly good access to everything.

I do agree on skipping the autowand gadgets. I do use ours for heating cider and that sort of thing. Will say it works great for things of that nature because the temperature can be programmed and it hits that point every single time. But I wouldn't waste time trying to texture milk with it.

Don't know about any sort of flushing technique because I've never had to do any. Anytime I've checked the group temp. it is always in the 199-200 range, which is where I choose to extract at. Never seen it register more than 1 degree higher/lower than those numbers regardless of whether I'm extracting 1 double each minute or 1 each hour. It is always predictable and simply dead-on.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on September 17, 2010 at 7:19am

I can only concur 100% regarding NS.
Joseph

Shadow said:

Have mentioned it here previously, but here goes again. I've had the pleasure of using two La Marzocco machines, a 3 group Linea and a 2 group FB/80. The Linea wasn't my fave by any means. Each of the 3 groups had varying water flow rates as well as lousy temperature stability. Could've been the refurb job that was done on it or maybe I just didn't understand the machine all that well. BUT did work on it daily for 7-8 months and was hard pressed to ever get anything I'd call great from it regardless of what tinkering was done. Now the FB/80 was a great machine. Much more refined than the Linea and much better consistency based on the time I spent on it. Really like the fit/finish of the LMs.

My daily driver is a 2 group Aurelia and I love using it. Now it does have some plastic on it, but the machine has a nice look to it IMO and the fit/finish is quite nice. Under the hood it's all business and I really like the parts layout and fairly good access to everything.

I do agree on skipping the autowand gadgets. I do use ours for heating cider and that sort of thing. Will say it works great for things of that nature because the temperature can be programmed and it hits that point every single time. But I wouldn't waste time trying to texture milk with it.

Don't know about any sort of flushing technique because I've never had to do any. Anytime I've checked the group temp. it is always in the 199-200 range, which is where I choose to extract at. Never seen it register more than 1 degree higher/lower than those numbers regardless of whether I'm extracting 1 double each minute or 1 each hour. It is always predictable and simply dead-on.

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on September 17, 2010 at 7:25am

Interesting, since IIRC Linea & FB80 guts the same (for same vintage and model ie AV vs EE). No wait, that's the FB70. Current FB80 has PID and brew boiler pre-heat, which would definitely put it class above stock Linea or FB70 in temp stability. Ok, makes sense now.:)

Shadow said:

Have mentioned it here previously, but here goes again. I've had the pleasure of using two La Marzocco machines, a 3 group Linea and a 2 group FB/80. The Linea wasn't my fave by any means. Each of the 3 groups had varying water flow rates as well as lousy temperature stability. Could've been the refurb job that was done on it or maybe I just didn't understand the machine all that well. BUT did work on it daily for 7-8 months and was hard pressed to ever get anything I'd call great from it regardless of what tinkering was done. Now the FB/80 was a great machine. Much more refined than the Linea and much better consistency based on the time I spent on it. Really like the fit/finish of the LMs.

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Permalink Reply by Renier Geldenhuys on September 20, 2010 at 1:52am

Ok I have visited both the Faema and the refurbished LM Linea supplier.

Firstly I visited the La Marzocco guys. It was great seeing all the new LM machines. The secondhand Lineas is imported from Greece and they are apparently about 5 years old. They are well used and dirty like hell. There buttons has also turned yellow from light exposure so they might even be older to my opinion. With the refurbishing they replace all the tap, group seals and also the seals between the boiler and the group heads, they do check for scaling, but apparently none of the machines they opened up so far had any scaling problems. For the rest of the they only replace if it does not work. they give a 6 month guarantee.

The Faema machines are great and they have excellent steam capability. The auto steam in my opinion is unbelievably good. I know how to foam milk and what the texture should be like. There is no bubbles, the foam thick and silky with a shiny surface. I have seen the results of the NS Aurelia auto steam and believe me it is not the same. The temperature stability seams to be good, they claim it to be one of the most stable on the HX machines on market.
The price of the E92 is actualy 9.400,00(USD) tax included, there Enova 2group was the only one in my price range at 7.000,00(USD) tax included, it has all the nice features, but it is plastic and ugly especially in burgundy the only colour they have available. They had other models as well like the E91 Ambassador, but all the covers are made form plastic. It probably should not bother me but it does, and I have to to feel proud of the machine in our shop.

I have also got some prices for the NS Aurelias the basic model is affordable but it apparently does not have the stability of the other models. I am going to research the Aurelias options this week.

At the moment I am considering these two options: 2group Aurelia or a new 2 group Linea.

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Permalink Reply by Shadow on September 20, 2010 at 5:28am

If I'm not mistaken only the Aurelia Competizione has a PID control, which might give it a slight advantage in stability. Based on my research the Volumetric and semi-auto Aurelias all have the same controls, therefore should have the same temperature stability. Believe me when I tell you, you'd be hard pressed to find a HX more stable than what I've seen with my Aurelia. Especially in stock form.

Have never used the Faema machine with the auto steam. I'll take your word for it that it is better than the Aurelia Smart Wand. Having said that I still believe a manual steam wand will offer better results than any type of automated system.

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Permalink Reply by Renier Geldenhuys on September 20, 2010 at 6:53am

The Aurelia Digit and the Competizione has the PID control and the only real difference is that the Digit has a third steam wand. Then there is the Aurelia S(semi-auto) and V(Volumetric) that runs on a Pressurestat. I understand the PID control is what actually gives this machine its temp stability. Without the PID control wont it be as stable as most HX machines? Shadow - What version do you work on?
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Shadow said:

If I'm not mistaken only the Aurelia Competizione has a PID control, which might give it a slight advantage in stability. Based on my research the Volumetric and semi-auto Aurelias all have the same controls, therefore should have the same temperature stability. Believe me when I tell you, you'd be hard pressed to find a HX more stable than what I've seen with my Aurelia. Especially in stock form.

Have never used the Faema machine with the auto steam. I'll take your word for it that it is better than the Aurelia Smart Wand. Having said that I still believe a manual steam wand will offer better results than any type of automated system.

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