Organic Coffee
I was wondering how important having organic coffee is to customers.
First, I admit I understand the appeal, and all things being equal (flavor, cost, etc), I would certainly prefer to have a cup of coffee knowing the beans were not produced with synthetic pesticides, etc.
But do you shop owners/baristas really market this novelty? Have you all had customers ask "is this coffee organic?" Do some shops sell non-organic AND organic or is it usually one or the other?
Furthermore, have you all noticed any difference in the quality of the organic coffee you've had compared to non-organic?
First, I admit I understand the appeal, and all things being equal (flavor, cost, etc), I would certainly prefer to have a cup of coffee knowing the beans were not produced with synthetic pesticides, etc.
But do you shop owners/baristas really market this novelty? Have you all had customers ask "is this coffee organic?" Do some shops sell non-organic AND organic or is it usually one or the other?
Furthermore, have you all noticed any difference in the quality of the organic coffee you've had compared to non-organic?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on
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First question, "But do you shop owners/Batista's really market this novelty?"
Yes, to clarify, it is not a novelty any more. 5 years ago, maybe. The market is all over it. Right or wrong, good or bad cup, the customers expect it now. In our shop if it is not OG / FT the customers want to know why not. If we can get organic for our shop we will, be it soap, baked goods, you name it. The small shops in this business are driving the market and need to stay on the cutting edge of what the consumer expects.
Our Brazil is the only one that is not and that is because we can't get it at this time.
Second question,"Have you all had customers ask "is this coffee organic?"
Answer, all the time. It's printed on our labels and the sharp educated consumer/shopper of today knows with "OG / FT " means.
Third question, regarding our shop I answered with question one.
Forth question,"have you all noticed any difference in the quality of the organic coffee you've had compared to non-organic?"
Not so much visually or in the cup. In my cupping training we did not have a pesticide sample to compare to a cup that was free of chemicals.
I can almost guarantee you will live longer if you drink coffee that is certified free of pesticides.
Joe
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Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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Permalink Reply by Randy Evans on
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I can't help but to wonder if it's a bunch of b.s.? Just because a grower chooses not to certify or become FT through a coop, should we not buy that growers coffee? It just doesn't seem sustainable to me to only purchase coffee from a coop or eliminate the larger estates that are doing all the right things (but can't certify due to not meeting the criteria of a third party). I also believe there is some crappy coffee out there that is certified (just because it says "certified blah blah blah", doesn't mean it's good!). Being 100% Organic is the easy way out. The focus for me is always in the cup and supporting the farmers that are growing exceptional coffee. I believe that if the coffee tastes great, then the grower(s) are doing something right and I want to reward their efforts.
We all like to feel good about what we're purchasing and putting into our bodies, and for that I think FT and Organic has been very successful about creating awareness. And no doubt, FT should be commended for their efforts and have improved many lives. I just think that the model is not all-encompassing and the consumer doesn't understand this. As a roaster, we carry both certified and non-certified coffees. Many of our non-certified coffees have performed well in cup-of-excellence competitions and cost way more than the certified coffees. The challenging part is communicating this to our customer who somehow is misled into believing if it's not FT and/or certified organic, then someone is getting screwed or the coffee is loaded with chemicals. Transparency is always our goal, it's just not always easy to provide. Sometimes I think it would be easier to purchase 100% certified, but I know that I and my customers would be losing out on some amazing coffees.
Just my two cents...please don't crucify me! :-)
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Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on
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Dilworth Coffee is a certified Organic roaster, so I am speaking on behalf of what I know. I know that people are asking for it, whether or not they really know what it means, or whether or not it's as big a deal as some people make it, is up to them. Organic doesn't mean the coffee is going to be good or great. It just means it's grown without pesticides and unnatural fertilizers. Some people who care about those things, see Organic as a really big deal. Some view it as a sustainability issue. We have great coffees that are Organic, and one's that aren't. Some people care, some don't. While we have a responsibility to be as socially conscious as we can with our coffee buying processes, there are situations like with our Brazil Conquista which is labeled "Socially Conscious", and is our direct trade coffee, where we've met the farm owner, we've talked with him about his growing and processing practices, and even though it's not certified Organic, still feel really good about it.
So, with that being said, it's got to be a combination of how you feel about it, and what your customers are wanting and asking for. There is definitely a flavor difference, though. Our Organic Sumatra Gayo is better than our traditional Sumatra. Our Organic Nicaraguan is great. Our Organic Costa Rican was milder, not as vivid. There's alot to think about these days.
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Randy, we don't crucify here, we roast at the stake. <];^)
Jason, very nice points you make. Randy you as well made some important points I left way out. Especially the one about "transparency" so important in this business as a shop owner, "coffee professional", to tell the whole story when the opportunity comes up.
Michael, I confess I over simplified your question but failed to complete some of points Randy and Jason covered well. Bruno our Brazil broker came into our shop with his family who manage the family farms in Ipanema one day. Grabbed a bag of his Brazil coffee we had on the shelf and had his daughter take a picture. He is so proud of his coffees and should be. Although not organic and some farms will not be for some time. He went on to explain that many of the farmers can't afford to not be organic. In other words since they can't afford chemicals most are already and always were organic. They just can't afford the 3rd party cert. mentioned above by Randy. It IS very important we pass this information on the the average consumer who has no idea what is going on in the field and on the farm. I hope we continue to buy coffee's that don't always have all the certs. It is wrong to force on or punish in a way the farmers who are already meeting standards by their very nature of age old farming techniques.
Cheers,
Joe
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Permalink Reply by Alun Evans on
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While we have a responsibility to be as socially conscious as we can with our coffee buying processes, there are situations like with our Brazil Conquista which is labeled "Socially Conscious", and is our direct trade coffee, where we've met the farm owner, we've talked with him about his growing and processing practices, and even though it's not certified Organic, still feel really good about it.
I think that a logical progression to this discussion is hidden in Jason's message. Most growers I deal with were initially forced into organic by the fact that they could not afford synthetic pesticides or fertiliser. However, when you talk with them, most actually would not use these anyway as most of the coffee I deal with is grown in and around the community (ie not on plantations). I think customers like organic because it is free of many pesticides- the farmers like it because it protects their health and the health and safety of the community they live in. Really our customers should also realise that increasing the yields at origin via use of chemical/manufactured insecticides is not only bad for them, but ultimately bad for the growers and the environment. Maybe the word "Organic" may have become just a continuation of the great marketing machine, but for sure it is prefered here where I live :)
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Thanks Michael for the questions, very nice discussion.
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Bravo Ricky, well put.
Ricky Sutton said:Word.
Another amusing tidbit that people seem to forget is that we're talking about 3rd world here. Most of the farmers we deal with could not afford pesticides if they wanted them. And they sure as hell can't afford to have their farm/co-op/processing center/etc. certified. The simple fact is that most coffee is organic, certified or not. The people using loads of pesticides are the people producing massive amounts of low quality coffee. I would not be surprised to find that most Vietnamese coffee and lots of Brazilian coffee are treated. No offence to those origins, they're just mass producers of coffee.
The fact is that "organic" and "shade grown" and "fair trade" are all businesses. And any business' prime directive is to stay in business. I don't dislike those businesses. I think that they are steps in the right direction. But rather than supporting a flawed system, i say we pass that money strait on to the farmer who earned it.
Randy Evans said:I can't help but to wonder if it's a bunch of b.s.? Just because a grower chooses not to certify or become FT through a coop, should we not buy that growers coffee? It just doesn't seem sustainable to me to only purchase coffee from a coop or eliminate the larger estates that are doing all the right things (but can't certify due to not meeting the criteria of a third party). I also believe there is some crappy coffee out there that is certified (just because it says "certified blah blah blah", doesn't mean it's good!). Being 100% Organic is the easy way out. The focus for me is always in the cup and supporting the farmers that are growing exceptional coffee. I believe that if the coffee tastes great, then the grower(s) are doing something right and I want to reward their efforts.
We all like to feel good about what we're purchasing and putting into our bodies, and for that I think FT and Organic has been very successful about creating awareness. And no doubt, FT should be commended for their efforts and have improved many lives. I just think that the model is not all-encompassing and the consumer doesn't understand this. As a roaster, we carry both certified and non-certified coffees. Many of our non-certified coffees have performed well in cup-of-excellence competitions and cost way more than the certified coffees. The challenging part is communicating this to our customer who somehow is misled into believing if it's not FT and/or certified organic, then someone is getting screwed or the coffee is loaded with chemicals. Transparency is always our goal, it's just not always easy to provide. Sometimes I think it would be easier to purchase 100% certified, but I know that I and my customers would be losing out on some amazing coffees.
Just my two cents...please don't crucify me! :-)
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Agree with much that's been said so far.
I'll speak only to the "customer" aspect of this issue, since that was the OP's question. The answer to these questions, of course, is "it varies"...
In some markets, if you do not carry a couple of organic options, you will lose business. In other markets it will not matter. For example, a shop across town from us serves coffees from the same roaster (Dilworth), yet carries very few of the same coffees we do. They were pretty much forced to drop their organic offerings because their customers would avoid them when they were brewed. This included 3 certified organic coffees that were top sellers in our store. I found this pretty bizarre, but the lesson is "listen to your customers". I guess another lesson is "educate your customers".
Most shops that I've seen carry a mix. We follow this model too, and it works.
I've had both great and mediocre organic coffees.
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agreed.
Brady said:Agree with much that's been said so far.
I'll speak only to the "customer" aspect of this issue, since that was the OP's question. The answer to these questions, of course, is "it varies"...
In some markets, if you do not carry a couple of organic options, you will lose business. In other markets it will not matter. For example, a shop across town from us serves coffees from the same roaster (Dilworth), yet carries very few of the same coffees we do. They were pretty much forced to drop their organic offerings because their customers would avoid them when they were brewed. This included 3 certified organic coffees that were top sellers in our store. I found this pretty bizarre, but the lesson is "listen to your customers". I guess another lesson is "educate your customers".
Most shops that I've seen carry a mix. We follow this model too, and it works.
I've had both great and mediocre organic coffees.
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Permalink Reply by Mike M on
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Wow. I'm both shocked and pleased by the quality and thoughtfulness of the responses thus far.
I am still very much a rookie in the barista game, and to be honest I hadn't thought about some farmers not being able to officially certify their products or about the possibility that it could be a way to forge a divide between those with the option and those that lack such an option, be it due financial or some other constraints. But it all makes sense!
When it comes to deciding what to sell, my fear is that if I am selling two brewed, drip coffees and one is marked, "Organic" (OG) and the other isn't, that I may be inadvertently hurting sales of that non-OG blend by drawing attention to the fact that it is not OG (or at least not certified!). With that in mind, I'm inclined to move towards the 100% OG camp. Furthermore, I am speculating that customers will not look at the 'all coffees are 100% organic' label or sign and shy away because they are anti-organic.
But as Brady said, the customers will inevitably have input on this as well. I'll definitely be surveying potential customers for their thoughts and I believe this will be one of the more interesting and thought-provoking questions. I do intend to educate and add to the social consciousness that exists amongst patrons, but I think the final decision will be subject to what they feel their needs are.
I really like the idea of visiting the farmer/farm where I would be purchasing my coffee from. I'd like to see their operation, shake hands with the workers, and take some pictures of where the products we well are harvested and the people who make it all happen. I'll be posting another question about this in the 'Origin Trips' section of BX.
For every question I've asked on here, the answers have spawned at least 10 more! It's great!
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BX rocks....a one stop coffee knowledge shop....
Michael Morand said:Wow. I'm both shocked and pleased by the quality and thoughtfulness of the responses thus far.
I am still very much a rookie in the barista game, and to be honest I hadn't thought about some farmers not being able to officially certify their products or about the possibility that it could be a way to forge a divide between those with the option and those that lack such an option, be it due financial or some other constraints. But it all makes sense!
When it comes to deciding what to sell, my fear is that if I am selling two brewed, drip coffees and one is marked, "Organic" (OG) and the other isn't, that I may be inadvertently hurting sales of that non-OG blend by drawing attention to the fact that it is not OG (or at least not certified!). With that in mind, I'm inclined to move towards the 100% OG camp. Furthermore, I am speculating that customers will not look at the 'all coffees are 100% organic' label or sign and shy away because they are anti-organic.
But as Brady said, the customers will inevitably have input on this as well. I'll definitely be surveying potential customers for their thoughts and I believe this will be one of the more interesting and thought-provoking questions. I do intend to educate and add to the social consciousness that exists amongst patrons, but I think the final decision will be subject to what they feel their needs are.
I really like the idea of visiting the farmer/farm where I would be purchasing my coffee from. I'd like to see their operation, shake hands with the workers, and take some pictures of where the products we well are harvested and the people who make it all happen. I'll be posting another question about this in the 'Origin Trips' section of BX.
For every question I've asked on here, the answers have spawned at least 10 more! It's great!
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Permalink Reply by Matt B on
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The issues surrounding organics, and certainly fair trade, are complex. Lots of folks--some of the best in the industry--source high quality, sustainably produced coffees that have no certifications to speak of. On the other hand, lots of people source exploitative coffee under the guise of calling organics and other third party certification programs BS (not saying this is what you are doing). This latter position unsatisfactory, in my opinion. Certainly, there are lots of certified coffees that suck. No doubt. (For every organic Sidamo that sparkles, there are 10 that don't, and myriad more organic Sumatras or Mexicos or whathaveyou that are similarly lame.) That FT currently has no stake in quality is one reason that we do not go through TransFair USA. But again, on the other hand, you can be damn sure that not all exceptional coffees come out smelling like roses, when you look at the chain of production. It is very difficult for small roasters with limited means to know for certain the true context of their coffees.
FT and organics have their ironies and outright failures, but they are not BS.
Randy Evans said:I can't help but to wonder if it's a bunch of b.s.? Just because a grower chooses not to certify or become FT through a coop, should we not buy that growers coffee? It just doesn't seem sustainable to me to only purchase coffee from a coop or eliminate the larger estates that are doing all the right things (but can't certify due to not meeting the criteria of a third party). I also believe there is some crappy coffee out there that is certified (just because it says "certified blah blah blah", doesn't mean it's good!). Being 100% Organic is the easy way out. The focus for me is always in the cup and supporting the farmers that are growing exceptional coffee. I believe that if the coffee tastes great, then the grower(s) are doing something right and I want to reward their efforts.
We all like to feel good about what we're purchasing and putting into our bodies, and for that I think FT and Organic has been very successful about creating awareness. And no doubt, FT should be commended for their efforts and have improved many lives. I just think that the model is not all-encompassing and the consumer doesn't understand this. As a roaster, we carry both certified and non-certified coffees. Many of our non-certified coffees have performed well in cup-of-excellence competitions and cost way more than the certified coffees. The challenging part is communicating this to our customer who somehow is misled into believing if it's not FT and/or certified organic, then someone is getting screwed or the coffee is loaded with chemicals. Transparency is always our goal, it's just not always easy to provide. Sometimes I think it would be easier to purchase 100% certified, but I know that I and my customers would be losing out on some amazing coffees.
Just my two cents...please don't crucify me! :-)
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