Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 21, 2011 at 5:02pm

On 3/20 R. Justin Shepherd said:

Update to the previous: After a few weeks of scouring Craigslist, eBay, et al for a good deal on a gently used Aurelia or LM of some sort, I pulled the trigger on buying a new 2-grp semi Aurelia. I got some time in on an Appia, and while I wouldn't want one for obvious reasons, I really enjoyed the steaming action, lever setup, etc., and based on aforementioned factors I think that the steaming and ergonomics of the machine will be a perfect fit for my clientele and my baristas. 

 

It hasn't arrived yet, but a quick note on Nuova Simonelli getting major customer satisfaction points: When I had my tech/rep order it, he was contacted by NS a couple days later and told that, through some sort of hangup at customs, the 2-group semi's just weren't going to be in the U.S. for another few weeks — so instead, they upgraded my order to the automatic version, with programmed backflushing, at no extra charge. I don't know how much of a real "loss" that is for NS, but it amounts to a $1,500 upgrade all because waiting on the semi would take a couple extra weeks. That's pretty sweet, I think. I fully plan to train (and enforce) the use of the manual button, but I've been behind the machine during ridiculous Christmas parades and the like, with a line 20 deep of large hot chocolates and white mochas, and having the volumetrics as a backup for that kind of situation is nice, especially since I'm not having to pay for them. 

 

Anyway. Thumbs up for NS' customer service — and no one's even paid them for the thing yet. I expect it to arrive this week sometime, and will get back with thoughts later. (Thanks, everybody, for the advice... this website is quite a resource for me.)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 21, 2011 at 5:03pm

On 3/21 Keaton Ritchie said:

Why not use those volumetrics buttons? You just got a free upgrade to your ability to deliver a consistent product. 

R. Justin Shepherd said:

Update to the previous: After a few weeks of scouring Craigslist, eBay, et al for a good deal on a gently used Aurelia or LM of some sort, I pulled the trigger on buying a new 2-grp semi Aurelia. I got some time in on an Appia, and while I wouldn't want one for obvious reasons, I really enjoyed the steaming action, lever setup, etc., and based on aforementioned factors I think that the steaming and ergonomics of the machine will be a perfect fit for my clientele and my baristas. 

 

It hasn't arrived yet, but a quick note on Nuova Simonelli getting major customer satisfaction points: When I had my tech/rep order it, he was contacted by NS a couple days later and told that, through some sort of hangup at customs, the 2-group semi's just weren't going to be in the U.S. for another few weeks — so instead, they upgraded my order to the automatic version, with programmed backflushing, at no extra charge. I don't know how much of a real "loss" that is for NS, but it amounts to a $1,500 upgrade all because waiting on the semi would take a couple extra weeks. That's pretty sweet, I think. I fully plan to train (and enforce) the use of the manual button, but I've been behind the machine during ridiculous Christmas parades and the like, with a line 20 deep of large hot chocolates and white mochas, and having the volumetrics as a backup for that kind of situation is nice, especially since I'm not having to pay for them. 

 

Anyway. Thumbs up for NS' customer service — and no one's even paid them for the thing yet. I expect it to arrive this week sometime, and will get back with thoughts later. (Thanks, everybody, for the advice... this website is quite a resource for me.)

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 21, 2011 at 5:05pm

On 3/21 Shadow said:

I have volumetric dosing on my Aurelia, but still extract all shots manually. IMO unless all variables are extremely consistent, volumetric dosing should be avoided for optimal results.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 21, 2011 at 5:05pm

On 3/21 Keaton Ritchie said:

Consistent shots require consistent(ly good) dosing, distribution and quantities of water. Crema volume varies shot to shot- which is why there was so much chatter about putting scales in drip trays not so long ago. Volumetric buttons will deliver a consistent amount of water resulting in consistent shot weights (assuming the other factors are constant which, if you're doing your job as the barista, they should be).

What harm can be done to your quality by using volumetric dosing?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Deferio on March 21, 2011 at 7:46pm

Speaking as a trainer I believe using volumetric buttons encourages laziness in staff. Provides too much of a temptation to rely on the machine to dictate what a good shot is rather than the barista. If you give them only one option, continuous flow, they must always be aware of what is happening. Ideally, staff would never be lazy, but we all have the tendency inside us to low ball it. Then some will say that at least you can be guaranteed that the shot will stop within a specified time and that helps under trained individuals...and to that the issue does not make volumetric dosing a valubale supplement to an already good program, it makes it Tylenol for a head ache that does nothing to address the real issue that called for it's being needed.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by R. Justin Shepherd on March 21, 2011 at 8:26pm

We've used volumetrics for six years and I'm just now trying to get my baristas to just pull and then cut off. That means more multitasking while making a latte, but in contrast to what Keaton is saying, in my experience volumetrics means more subpar shots making it into the cup. When you use te volumetrics it's too easy to "forget" to time a shot, and unless its 10 seconds off either way the barista assumes it's "good enough" and moves on.

Consequently, I swear something about the volumetric pump action on my old Astoria imparts an extra bit of bitterness into the shot. I've tested this thoroughly and can't put my finger on "why," but a 28-second manual shot tastes better than a 28-second volumetric shot every single time.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by R. Justin Shepherd on March 21, 2011 at 8:28pm

One would hope that on a brand new Aurelia that wouldn't be the case... We'll see soon enough. (And was delighted to see Gwilym Davies' new shop uses an Aurelia... I won't be the only kid at the playground without a Marzocco and feeling uncool.)

R. Justin Shepherd said:

We've used volumetrics for six years and I'm just now trying to get my baristas to just pull and then cut off. That means more multitasking while making a latte, but in contrast to what Keaton is saying, in my experience volumetrics means more subpar shots making it into the cup. When you use te volumetrics it's too easy to "forget" to time a shot, and unless its 10 seconds off either way the barista assumes it's "good enough" and moves on. Consequently, I swear something about the volumetric pump action on my old Astoria imparts an extra bit of bitterness into the shot. I've tested this thoroughly and can't put my finger on "why," but a 28-second manual shot tastes better than a 28-second volumetric shot every single time.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 22, 2011 at 6:13am

This is an interesting one for me. It is certainly possible to pull outstanding, consistent shots with the volumetric buttons, however there are some considerations.

 

I like what Deferio has said on the subject so far. The lazy factor is the root of my issue with using the program buttons as well.

 

Being a barista requires developing solid fundamental techniques, the ability to execute them consistently, and the knowledge to make adjustments as-needed. However, I believe our most important task is monitoring every shot and deciding whether to serve or toss it, and what, if any, changes to make for the next shot. If you've allowed your attention to wander to other things and come back after the machine has cut off, you are missing some of the information that you need to make that decision. While using manual mode doesn't guarantee proper attention, at least it keeps the barista connected to the process through the end of the extraction.

 

Also, when you use volumetric buttons, you are working under the idea that the amount of water involved in the extraction trumps the appearance of the extraction in determining shot cutoff for a consistent shot. That seems to be the fundamental question... doesn't it?

 

To clarify... Let's say that you dial in your extraction at the beginning of your shift to achieve a good shot, with the idea being that for the next period of time, you'll try to duplicate that extraction's dose, grind, temp, time, and finished volume or weight. You will see small variations in the shots that you pull through your shift... they can be minimized, but are unavoidable. Will your shots be better and more consistent if the volume of water stays the same as your calibration shots, or will they be better if you watch the shot and make a decision on a shot-by-shot basis?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on March 22, 2011 at 8:01am

Volumetric buttons are great for post shot group flush and PF rinse.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Nathanael May on March 22, 2011 at 9:16am

My experience has been similar to Chris's - I've not seen a really quality-driven cafe that was using volumetric buttons as the final step of a process of beautiful consistency in grinding, dosing and tamping. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

I train new baristas to monitor three things: color, time, and volume. Color is most important. Volumetric buttons - as their name says! - promote shot volume to a higher level of importance than it deserves. In my opinion.

 

I'm probably wrong.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jacob Casella on March 22, 2011 at 10:11am

I train and work at a few cafes using Marzoccos with the auto-volumetric functions.  I want us to have the best possible espresso, so I'm constantly kind of staring at those buttons wondering if they're my enemy or not.

 

The way automatic buttons can encourage laziness is the biggest problem with them.

 

I'm not super-opposed to the volumetric for a couple reasons, however.

• On an unavoidable pragmatic level: the cafes I work in serve 20oz espresso drinks.  I can fit a 20oz cup under my PFs (the naked ones anyway), but I can't see the extraction.  The alternative to trusting the AV button, then, is to pull the shot into an intermediary vessel, which doesn't make me that happy either.
• Color changes in espresso...I think maybe the visual appearance gets overemphasized.  If anyone can prove me wrong on this, please do so.  If my shots are consistently dosed and the grind is dialed in so they brew to the right time...the shots taste good, even if they get blonde before the time is up.  Brewing manually with the same settings, and stopping based on the visual appearance, does not seem to improve flavor.
• The volumetric controls seem to be fairly independent of crema volume.  I'm going to go test this a little more rigorously now just to be sure, but it makes sense given the way the flowmeters work: they're measuring the water moving through the group before it contacts the coffee to form crema, not the volume of the dispensed drink.  Thus, despite the name, volumetric controls seem to produce shots that are more consistent by mass than by volume of the actual prepared espresso.  It took me a few rounds of setting the shot volumes with fresh, gassy espresso before I figured out to use a scale instead of a graduated cylinder.
• Other things being equal, I like the ability to knock out one more inconsistency in my grind/dose/heat/water ratios.  The downside to every AV machine I've ever seen, though, is that the volumetric controls are not amenable to rapid adjustment.  I think we might be less opposed to AVs if we could dial in the espresso volume as finely and as readily as we change our grind settings.

On the cons side:

• Laziness, laziness.  I think this is part of a larger issue with coffee preparation, where some part of people's brains say "it's just coffee" and don't give it as much attention as you need.  I tell my trainees all the time: you wouldn't serve a burnt sandwich, you wouldn't serve melted ice cream...why serve a bad shot?  But, it's hard to get into people's brains when a.) they can just hit this button and forget about it, and b.) too many people, even people working espresso machines, haven't had that really revelatory shot of espresso.  That godshot that blows your mind, and then you want to make shots that good all the time.  Most people just think espresso is super-strong, super-bitter, so how bad could it be?  And these buttons encourage that.
• My biggest complaint, at least with the Linea-type volumetric controls, is heat loss.  Take the top of my machine off, I've got these big sturdy group-heads with these dinky copper pipes coming out of it, to the flowmeter, back in...which I know is a big part of that temperature loss I can measure at the head.  The GB5 flowmeters seem to be a lot better, less room for thermal loss.  I don't know how well or badly other machines do.
• The real bummer about the flowmeter set-up is that, even if I use manual controls for my shot...the water takes the same path, so I can't avoid all those heat-loss issues.

Right now I don't think I'd buy a volumetric machine if I were opening my own shop.  But I think if volumetric controls were designed for a real specialty barista, instead of just being there for convenience, I would be extremely interested.  At least as much as I'm interested in pressure-profiling machines.  It's kind of silly to think that we should use a combination of techniques and grinders to get a super-consistent dose, PID the machine for heat, maybe even control the pressure profile...but just control volume by eyeballing color changes.

 

I'm also ready to welcome our new robot overlords, so it might just be I have less of an instinct against automation than most.

 

Brady said:

To clarify... Let's say that you dial in your extraction at the beginning of your shift to achieve a good shot, with the idea being that for the next period of time, you'll try to duplicate that extraction's dose, grind, temp, time, and finished volume or weight. You will see small variations in the shots that you pull through your shift... they can be minimized, but are unavoidable. Will your shots be better and more consistent if the volume of water stays the same as your calibration shots, or will they be better if you watch the shot and make a decision on a shot-by-shot basis?

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on March 22, 2011 at 11:26am

I've always done the exact same thing.  I've never once trained a client with a volumetric machine to do anything other than continuous flow.  For exactly the same reasons. 

Deferio said:

Speaking as a trainer I believe using volumetric buttons encourages laziness in staff. Provides too much of a temptation to rely on the machine to dictate what a good shot is rather than the barista. If you give them only one option, continuous flow, they must always be aware of what is happening. Ideally, staff would never be lazy, but we all have the tendency inside us to low ball it. Then some will say that at least you can be guaranteed that the shot will stop within a specified time and that helps under trained individuals...and to that the issue does not make volumetric dosing a valubale supplement to an already good program, it makes it Tylenol for a head ache that does nothing to address the real issue that called for it's being needed.

 

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• Next ›
• Page