Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Nick Guidry on November 17, 2008 at 2:27pm

I havent been to Plaza Midwood, but i agree about NoDa, thats one of my favorite parts of town, and i think that the area is screaming for more options. Brent I see eye to eye with all of your thoughts and ideas. But you brought up another great question i wanted to ask...

Beer, Wine & Food. Is it worth it? I've heard mixed feelings on both sides of the plate. I've heard its hard to survive without offering food options, but i've also heard that its a lot of upkeep, its expensive, the ROI isnt high enough, and that an alcohol license is of significant cost. So, do you offer those options? Are these actual issues, or is it fear of something new that brings those opinions?

I am fully with you on creating a third place. i think it could thrive if done well. My thought is, in a place like NoDa a third place would be incredible. with the Muse right there, and various other great little shops/eateries around there, its dying for expansion...

Permalink Reply by Brady on November 17, 2008 at 3:04pm

Wow... check out for a few hours and see what happens. Where to begin...

What I proposed in my first post - the total hardcore shop, could happen in many areas in North Carolina, even in Charlotte. However, I suspect it will be a few years before this could happen, because I don't believe the hardcore coffee consumer alone is enough to keep a shop afloat with rent structures what they are. Plus, the existing "just ok 2nd wave" shop density is pretty thick - so to create a hardcore-concept store, you'd have to go head-to-head with a well-entrenched existing shop. Perfect example - Smelly Cat in NoDa, SK Net in Elizabeth, etc. You gotta find an owner with a big ol' pair and big ol' budget. I think it'd be kinda silly to open a shop like that out in the uncharted suburbs... you gotta be central enough to draw from the whole city AND THEN get the message out to the hardcore coffee people.

But we CAN sure do a good, quality shop here... one like some of you have described. I've been in a few (and I like to think have helped start one up too, but others can judge that better than I). I'll share more about this after dinner.

Permalink Reply by Brent hall on November 17, 2008 at 3:16pm

Nick...I definitely believe it's worth carrying at least food. Beer and wine are totally optional and dependent on your demographic. As for food...I think (and I could be wrong) people lose out when they provide pre-made sandwiches. From experience, people don't mark these sandwiches up enough to see a real profit from them. They also don't break down the cost of what it takes to keep those sandwiches (i.e. storage, delivery, bottom line). Preparing sandwiches, or small fare in house dramatically reduce the cost to owners, as well as increase quality. ROI on food can be very high, if done correctly. As far as alcohol, it's a great thing to have, but I can see the reservations to carry it. Again...using NoDa, alcohol would do great at a shop/bar. We need to have a definition for coffee/espresso/bar. Is it a coffee bar? Or is it a bar? or is it a coffee shop?

Things to think about.

Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on November 17, 2008 at 4:23pm

Wow, I really like this discussion. I have to agree with Brady, like I stated before and say I don't think Charlotte is there yet. There is room for plenty of "community" coffee shops, Dilworth Coffee being a great example. Brady's shop being a great example. Summit Coffee being another, and out of most of the shops in the area that comes closest to what I see as an ideal shop, Summit and the Dilworth Coffee on East Blvd. come closest to this. I think we are a little bit early, but I do see what we are doing as setting up the foundation for it to happen. Public cuppings, the informal barista jams I do every month, the throwdowns we have going now, all of these things will help to progress the scene forward to get there.
As far as locations, I got two areas in my mind. NoDa and Plaza-Midwood. As someone who understands this dynamic, those areas are the areas I see as being the best places for that kind of coffeehouse to go down. I have started working with Smelly Cat a little, and hope to be able to help them further, but there is definitely a lack of good shops in that area. I know that I am helping Jimmy Kleto open Central Coffee Company over by Cafe Intermezzo, down a little from Plaza-Midwood. I think he knows what he is doing, and will do well. But a shop like we are talking about? We will see.
And as far as quality shops around, I don't want him to get a big head, but Brady has done a great shop with that, as has Debra at Java Passage. It's all up to the owner. Great conversation!

Permalink Reply by Nick Guidry on November 17, 2008 at 4:44pm

another angle...is it "not there yet" because the area is not quite ready for that type of shop, or is it more that someone just needs to take the plunge and do it for people to respond? Do you think its something that needs to be eased into, or do you think that maybe consumers are ready, but there's just not a shop in the area right now for them to associate that level of culture with?

and i'm glad you said Smelly Cat, i was trying to remember the name of that shop earlier and it was driving me nuts that i couldnt remember it!

agreed...great discussion.

Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on November 17, 2008 at 4:55pm

Off the top of my head I can think of two examples of shops that were open that have recently closed, shops that closely modeled what we are thinking about. Cupps in Rock Hill, and Shade Tree in Durham. Shops where the owner did "all the right things", but because they were so focused on quality, their costs got out of hand, their overhead too high, and where they were it didn't make sense. Plus, in Charlotte at least, the cost of space is pretty high in most places. Its A Grind, which was in the Ballantyne area of Charlotte, was paying almost $43 a square foot. And for a coffeehouse, that's impossible. Land around NoDa is increasing in cost due to all the new condos going up, and the fact that it's becoming a prized part of Charlotte. I have heard there was a lady opening a shop in an old mill over there, but not much about it.
It will take someone who has pretty deep pockets, and time. And most have one or the other. But, that's just my thoughts. I would like to say we are ready now, heck, I want a shop like this as much as anyone, I am a coffee geek, too, but I just don't see it yet. At the Roastery we talk about it all the time, how much we would like a shop like Octane, but none of the people opening shops recently are in that frame of mind.

Permalink Reply by Brady on November 17, 2008 at 5:42pm

I think that portions of the market are ready. The right owner/market/space just haven't lined up yet.

You know, maybe for an envelope pusher what we need is a really great cart... low overhead, easy to staff, location can be tweaked as things change.

In terms of quality comfortable 3rd places... that is happening. The names Jason threw out are good ones... places that have great attention to quality, fit the community, but maybe aren't so worried about being cutting edge. It would be a big step forward to see there be 2-3x as many shops of this caliber, and I think the market would eat that up. I know it would, because I hear it every day (I'm not trying to brag about our shop - I'm just sorta confused as to why more people aren't doing it better). Its not rocket science - just making drinks the way we all know is right and being nice to people.

One other thing that I think would help lots of shops is getting board of health inspections. Most shops have the hardware, they just haven't gone through with it. That makes so many things possible - ceramic cups and sandwiches being the biggies. I think, depending on the location, food can be huge. Retail space is expensive, and if it sits empty during lunchtime you have a problem. We do sandwiches in-house and it is a great part of our business. That said, there's nowhere else to get a sandwich in our area, which helps. If we were next to a deli, forget it. What Brent said was right - buying sandwiches from somewhere else is not so great... you have to guess on the quantity (and the lunch crowd is real hit-or-miss) which means you'll end up running out, keeping too long, and tossing too many. Bad business!

Wow... what a ramble. I'm not even gonna try reading it back to fix it. That's what I get for trying to catch up all at once?

Permalink Reply by Brent hall on November 17, 2008 at 8:40pm

Jason Dominy said:

Wow, I really like this discussion. I have to agree with Brady, like I stated before and say I don't think Charlotte is there yet. There is room for plenty of "community" coffee shops, Dilworth Coffee being a great example. Brady's shop being a great example. Summit Coffee being another, and out of most of the shops in the area that comes closest to what I see as an ideal shop, Summit and the Dilworth Coffee on East Blvd. come closest to this. I think we are a little bit early, but I do see what we are doing as setting up the foundation for it to happen. Public cuppings, the informal barista jams I do every month, the throwdowns we have going now, all of these things will help to progress the scene forward to get there.
As far as locations, I got two areas in my mind. NoDa and Plaza-Midwood. As someone who understands this dynamic, those areas are the areas I see as being the best places for that kind of coffeehouse to go down. I have started working with Smelly Cat a little, and hope to be able to help them further, but there is definitely a lack of good shops in that area. I know that I am helping Jimmy Kleto open Central Coffee Company over by Cafe Intermezzo, down a little from Plaza-Midwood. I think he knows what he is doing, and will do well. But a shop like we are talking about? We will see.

As much as I would love to agree about a community shop...Summit is not a good example. Put a shop that is up to the ideals that we are speaking about, and Summit would have their hands full. It's a big world outside of Davidson.

I think it would be interesting to "test" a market such as that of Plaza midwood and NoDa...now I know this is turning into a Charlotte conversation. For those of you who don't know the area...Plaza is somewhat of a cultural anomaly in the area...meaning good bands, good music, good food, little bit of a scene and arts here, but don't get too excited...it's not what you think. And NoDa is our three block excuse for an arts district. It would be a great thing to have good coffee up there, and would round out the neighborhood nicely. And yes Nick, it's "Not there yet" because no one has taken the plunge, and right now I don't blame anyone who decides to not open a shop. Banks aren't exactly tossing out money like they were a few years back, and the banks that are tossing out money...well...are being bought by other banks to take up bad loans...another story completely.

Real Estate...man I tell ya, that's an over inflated market if I may. I felt that $25/sqft in Charleston was exuberant...but $43? Really...come on!!! Somehow, it's a grind is surviving...but for indies out there...please remember that this is a CORPORATE backed store. that means...it's someone else's money, and there is a lot of it. So unless you have multiple shops with a flagship, don't...never...ever...NEVER...pay that much per sqft. I don't care if the land lord says thirty thousand people drive past it everyday...you have to ask, "how fast?"

Charlotte is teaming with little pockets of people who want to do better. I feel the energy at Jams, the farmers market, the art galleries, and the thrift stores...we can do this...but we need to tap a lot of heads.

And speaking on menus...has anyone..and I mean anyone south of Ninth St, thought of this...simple. put simply (notice the pattern)...traditionals with some brew, and a bit of blended (because let's face it, Frappe's make money). But do we need the smoothies, whipped cream, 63 flavors, and a toad to match??...NO!!! It's a cafe, or coffee house, not a wheat grass bar. someone is already doing that (smoothie king, planet smoothie). Let them do it, and let us continue doing the vices we enjoy (beer, wine, and coffee in case you haven't followed this) to the best of our ability and stick to our guns!!!!

Ok...I'll stop. STICK TO YOUR GUNS DANGIT!!

Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on November 19, 2008 at 1:08pm

(I know this discussion has went kinda Charlotte-oriented, but I bet it's true for other places, as well, Athens, GA for sure.) I think the key is to find a way to get all the pockets connected, and that's what I am trying to do with Arabica Labrica. It's about breaking down the walls that separate our businesses, and taking what we have in common and running with it to make our region better. That's all I'm sayin.

Permalink Reply by Brady on November 20, 2008 at 5:59pm

It occurs to me that another thing that would really help the shops in this area (all areas, for sure)...

This online community.

Can't tell you how much I've learned and how much my coffee perspective has been shaped by discussions here. Maybe that's another tool that we can use when trying to nudge some of these shops in a better direction... its an easy sell too. Good networking, fun community, keep plugged in to the scene... a sneaky way of getting some knowledge across. Maybe we should all have a couple of those glossy bX cards in our back pockets when heading out into the wilderness.

After thinking a bit, I will tell you that the Charlotte shop that I feel has the greatest potential in terms of vibe and location - SK Net. Once that construction mess dies down that whole area is going to go crazy. I'm definitely going to try and get some of their staff to come out to the TNT next month... maybe I can recruit for bX at the same time.

Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on November 20, 2008 at 6:02pm

I have dropped flyers off there (skNet) for our jams. I am down there a good bit, as we are taking the coffee over at customshop, I will drop in there and chat. But, I agree, this site can really help.

Brady said:

It occurs to me that another thing that would really help the shops in this area (all areas, for sure)...
This online community.
Can't tell you how much I've learned and how much my coffee perspective has been shaped by discussions here. Maybe that's another tool that we can use when trying to nudge some of these shops in a better direction... its an easy sell too. Good networking, fun community, keep plugged in to the scene... a sneaky way of getting some knowledge across. Maybe we should all have a couple of those glossy bX cards in our back pockets when heading out into the wilderness.

After thinking a bit, I will tell you that the Charlotte shop that I feel has the greatest potential in terms of vibe and location - SK Net. Once that construction mess dies down that whole area is going to go crazy. I'm definitely going to try and get some of their staff to come out to the TNT next month... maybe I can recruit for bX at the same time.

Permalink Reply by Brady on November 20, 2008 at 6:13pm

Yeah, I go up to CPCC occasionally and would hang out there to read. That is absolutely the funkiest bar in Charlotte. The sculpted tinfoil dragon/wind blowing guy blows me away.

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