Standard milk choices for espresso drinks?
I'm curious. The shop I "grew up" in as a barista used Whole Milk as default for capps, lattes, etc. 2% was used for the low-fat versions and there was no fat free milk to be found on the premises. This seems like a no brainer to me. Am I crazy? When someone says the word milk, I think Whole Milk, because that's what milk is. If you mean any other kind of milk that's been modified in some way, you qualify by saying, "Skim Milk", or "Low Fat Milk", or "Fat Free Milk." Right? So, by extending that logic, shouldn't drink names be treated the same way? Now, I'm hearing that some places, including *$, are using 2% as their standard, default milk. Is this really true? Is there a general industry standard on this? I get really pissed if I order a cappucino and take a sip only to discover that the barista used low-fat milk without even asking me. I don't need a societal nanny forcing me to cut down on my fat intake. I choose when and where to cut the fat, thanks. That just doesn't seem right. Do any of you offer skim in your places? We do, but it steams/foams/pours/tastes like crap. Maybe it's my skills, I don't know, but I want to nix it. Thoughts, opinions, comiserations???
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bam on
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Hi Jennifer,
Regarding how nonfat steams and pours -
I'm sure you've noticed that nonfat will foam up really quickly. The foam also separates from the foam very quickly. Even as you're pouring, it's separating, which can result in a thin stream of milk topped off by a big lump of foam at the end, ruining a design.
When I steam nonfat, I aerate it for about a second less than I would aerate whole milk. This prevents it from foaming up too much.
When I've finished steaming the milk, I pour it right away, before the foam has a chance to separate.
If I need to tap the pitcher on the counter to pop a few larger bubbles, I tap only once or twice, and as lightly as possible, because tapping the pitcher will cause foam to separate even more quickly. After tapping, I swirl right away to reintegrate milk & foam a little.
When I pour nonfat, I pour a little more quickly than I would pour whole milk, since the foam is separating even as I pour. Thus I don't always bring up the crema as nicely as I do with a slower pour, but usually I can still achieve a good contrast in my design.
It takes time and practice, but it's completely possible to make nonfat look good.
Once you're able to steam/foam/pour nonfat well, the only remaining factor is taste. If you feel that nonfat milk tastes bad enough to be unserve-able, nix it!
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Alex said:Being a Barista, and being well ingrained in the industry, frankly I would be pissed if you served me that Kenya with 2% with either asking me first or offering a side-by-side comparison so that I may determine which is better myself. Even if it turns out that you're right and it does go better with 2%, I won't tollerate someone else making my decisions for me.
Andy Atkinson said:I used to be all about the whole milk all the time. Then I started actually tasting things regularly using different types of milk (mixing skim and whole to create desired fat contents). Since then I'm not one to jump to whole right away for everything. We use a lot of single origin espresso and are rotating them out all the time. While our regular blend works well with whole milk we found it actually performs best flavor-wise with 3/4 whole, 1/4 skim, which equates approximately to 3% milk fat. But it's not the most feasible thing to be mixing milks in the middle of a rush for every drink, or to ensure everyone is mixing there milks right and all that, so we generally opt for a whole milk default on shifts. With our SOEs we have found that a lot of the more delicate espressos get way to washed out in whole milk, but will blossom in 2%. I say let your espresso tell you what milk to default at, a lot of the heavy body, cocoa, and smokey espressos may very well work in whole milk, or who knows, even higher fat content. Would you be pissed if I served you a cappuccino with say a delicate fruity Kenya, and used 2% milk so that the awesome yet subtle apricot acidity wasn't completely lost?
Alex, Andy's hypothetical Kenya Capp is made with 2% because that's how they want to offer it. They've tasted the alternatives, and that's what they feel makes the strongest drink. You can like it or not like it. Just because you happen to know a bit about coffee doesn't mean they should have to offer you options.
Are you one of those customers that walks in and says "I've never had your latte, but could you make it like this instead?" If so, you may want to reconsider this approach. I know that you may often get a drink you like better by dictating your order, but you'll also miss out on some new things. In case you couldn't tell, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
To get back to the original question, we use 2% as our default milk for lattes and a 50-50 2% + half-and-half blend for our capps.
We do not offer the choices of 2%, skim, or soy when the customer orders their drink. We do have these available and will happily substitute as requested, but we do not ask if they want it. Skim and soy customers know that they want skim or soy and will ask. Most of the rest don't care as long as you make it taste good.
The 2% is not for cost savings, it is because we felt it worked just as well as whole and was a healthier choice for our customers. We've had no complaints, funny looks, or even had any questions about our milk choice, we have had plenty of compliments and return business - including lots of comments that our drinks taste better than nearby shops that use the same espresso and whole milk. I happen to like the balance and the way our espresso shines through.
For the record, I don't see how this is forcing anyone to do anything. We're choosing the products and recipes our shop will offer, which is our choice to make. Why should milk fat content be any different than coffee selections, syrup brands, drink recipes? These are all choices for the shop to make. If you like our drinks, this is great.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Y. Gaoiran on
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Brady,
I'm definitely going to have to get some drinks with 2%/half whole-half half&half, now. Great considerations on what I once thought as a given. Thanks!
Brady said:Alex said:Being a Barista, and being well ingrained in the industry, frankly I would be pissed if you served me that Kenya with 2% with either asking me first or offering a side-by-side comparison so that I may determine which is better myself. Even if it turns out that you're right and it does go better with 2%, I won't tollerate someone else making my decisions for me.
Andy Atkinson said:I used to be all about the whole milk all the time. Then I started actually tasting things regularly using different types of milk (mixing skim and whole to create desired fat contents). Since then I'm not one to jump to whole right away for everything. We use a lot of single origin espresso and are rotating them out all the time. While our regular blend works well with whole milk we found it actually performs best flavor-wise with 3/4 whole, 1/4 skim, which equates approximately to 3% milk fat. But it's not the most feasible thing to be mixing milks in the middle of a rush for every drink, or to ensure everyone is mixing there milks right and all that, so we generally opt for a whole milk default on shifts. With our SOEs we have found that a lot of the more delicate espressos get way to washed out in whole milk, but will blossom in 2%. I say let your espresso tell you what milk to default at, a lot of the heavy body, cocoa, and smokey espressos may very well work in whole milk, or who knows, even higher fat content. Would you be pissed if I served you a cappuccino with say a delicate fruity Kenya, and used 2% milk so that the awesome yet subtle apricot acidity wasn't completely lost?
Alex, Andy's hypothetical Kenya Capp is made with 2% because that's how they want to offer it. They've tasted the alternatives, and that's what they feel makes the strongest drink. You can like it or not like it. Just because you happen to know a bit about coffee doesn't mean they should have to offer you options.
Are you one of those customers that walks in and says "I've never had your latte, but could you make it like this instead?" If so, you may want to reconsider this approach. I know that you may often get a drink you like better by dictating your order, but you'll also miss out on some new things. In case you couldn't tell, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
To get back to the original question, we use 2% as our default milk for lattes and a 50-50 2% + half-and-half blend for our capps.
We do not offer the choices of 2%, skim, or soy when the customer orders their drink. We do have these available and will happily substitute as requested, but we do not ask if they want it. Skim and soy customers know that they want skim or soy and will ask. Most of the rest don't care as long as you make it taste good.
The 2% is not for cost savings, it is because we felt it worked just as well as whole and was a healthier choice for our customers. We've had no complaints, funny looks, or even had any questions about our milk choice, we have had plenty of compliments and return business - including lots of comments that our drinks taste better than nearby shops that use the same espresso and whole milk. I happen to like the balance and the way our espresso shines through.
For the record, I don't see how this is forcing anyone to do anything. We're choosing the products and recipes our shop will offer, which is our choice to make. Why should milk fat content be any different than coffee selections, syrup brands, drink recipes? These are all choices for the shop to make. If you like our drinks, this is great.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Graham on
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What great thoughts from everybody! It's always a trip to start a discussion here and watch it take on a life of its own! To those of you who use a certain type of milk because you feel it accentuates the espresso you're using, I think that's great! I would trust you to do what you do and do it well. I didn't mean to imply that I'm a closed-minded troglodyte about food and drink. I actually like to be wowed and pleasantly surprised, but I would probably want to know ahead of time, if it came up somehow, and be given a little spiel about your reasons. That component is priceless to me in a great food or drink experience. I just don't think artistic license was at work in the instances that I've been served lowfat drinks. I guess I do have some trust issues with other baristas, but that's mostly to do with the area that I'm in. Not every barista is an enlightened coffee professional around here, so it's always a gamble.
BTW, Bam Bam, thanks so much for the detailed advice about using skim milk. I've been following your suggestions this morning, and it's going really well! As far as latte art is concerned, I'm still working on whole milk, but I'm able to free pour the skim milk now with no help from the spoon! ATTENTION: Not that I would ever scoop foam on top, but I've been using the spoon to kind of help the foam out of the pitcher along with the milk!
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Yeah, I have to agree that I'm pretty skeptical of random barista at random bar on my first visit too. I have been making an effort recently to give them the benefit of the doubt and have had some pleasant surprises, but also some disappointments.
A little upfront dialogue can be a great thing. Before ordering, I usually ask what their standard smallest cappuccino is like (unless it is evident, by the collection of 6oz ceramics scattered around the dining room) and go from there. Perhaps you could ask upfront about the milk and start the conversation that way.
This approach is a bit of a recent change for me. I used to just specify a drink first, but feel like I was missing out on part of the experience and not getting a good feel for the style of the shop. The decisions a shop makes say a lot about them, so even if you don't go their way you at least have an idea of how they do things. That's one of the reasons I usually get a cappuccino... I want to know what their version of a cappuccino is and how well they execute it. I guess when I visit shops now I'm always doing some evaluation, looking for ideas, and looking for great shops to remember and recommend to friends.
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I'm so glad it was helpful!
Ricky, we could just settle this like gentle-baristas with an old-fashioned duel. :)
Jennifer Graham said:BTW, Bam Bam, thanks so much for the detailed advice about using skim milk. I've been following your suggestions this morning, and it's going really well! As far as latte art is concerned, I'm still working on whole milk, but I'm able to free pour the skim milk now with no help from the spoon! ATTENTION: Not that I would ever scoop foam on top, but I've been using the spoon to kind of help the foam out of the pitcher along with the milk!
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Permalink Reply by Paul Yates on
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Baristas settle this jam-style!
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Brady,
Whether it started out that way and we just carried it on as a tradition, or maybe it just became a store-wide phenomenon, but at my old place (Barefoot Coffee) the cappuccino became the drink of choice to recommend. Always. First time? Capp. Can't decide? Capp. Been a regular and want to try something else? Capp.
On the menu, that beloved drink of drinks was listed under a different name with "Market" as the price. LOVE, as it quickly became known, became the default drink for co-workers on and off shift, former employees, our roasters (who roast at a separate location), and friends of all stripes. I didn't think about it much then but LOVE is the perfect name for a drink we spent so much time honing. Sure, you could find it at other coffee shops, but you always knew you were at Barefoot when you could get a delicious creamy cappuccino practically thrown at you as you walked through the door. It's that kind of shop.
As for having it on the menu and not being available to the general public: yeah, it's "just" a cappuccino, but having it made for you by friends without having to shell out cash is way different than having it made by strangers and having to pay for it. So yeah, LOVE it is.
Brady said:Yeah, I have to agree that I'm pretty skeptical of random barista at random bar on my first visit too. I have been making an effort recently to give them the benefit of the doubt and have had some pleasant surprises, but also some disappointments.
A little upfront dialogue can be a great thing. Before ordering, I usually ask what their standard smallest cappuccino is like (unless it is evident, by the collection of 6oz ceramics scattered around the dining room) and go from there. Perhaps you could ask upfront about the milk and start the conversation that way.
This approach is a bit of a recent change for me. I used to just specify a drink first, but feel like I was missing out on part of the experience and not getting a good feel for the style of the shop. The decisions a shop makes say a lot about them, so even if you don't go their way you at least have an idea of how they do things. That's one of the reasons I usually get a cappuccino... I want to know what their version of a cappuccino is and how well they execute it. I guess when I visit shops now I'm always doing some evaluation, looking for ideas, and looking for great shops to remember and recommend to friends.
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Chris Y. Gaoiran said:Brady,
Whether it started out that way and we just carried it on as a tradition, or maybe it just became a store-wide phenomenon, but at my old place (Barefoot Coffee) the cappuccino became the drink of choice to recommend. Always. First time? Capp. Can't decide? Capp. Been a regular and want to try something else? Capp. On the menu, that beloved drink of drinks was listed under a different name with "Market" as the price. LOVE, as it quickly became known, became the default drink for co-workers on and off shift, former employees, our roasters (who roast at a separate location), and friends of all stripes. I didn't think about it much then but LOVE is the perfect name for a drink we spent so much time honing. Sure, you could find it at other coffee shops, but you always knew you were at Barefoot when you could get a delicious creamy cappuccino practically thrown at you as you walked through the door. It's that kind of shop.
As for having it on the menu and not being available to the general public: yeah, it's "just" a cappuccino, but having it made for you by friends without having to shell out cash is way different than having it made by strangers and having to pay for it. So yeah, LOVE it is.
Beautiful. So one could walk in and say "give me some love" and get a cappuccino? What a concept!
Bam Bam and Ricky... we've been threatening to do a skim-only throwdown at one our TNTs... you are welcome to join us :). This is great advice, and precisely what I do when using skim. Gotta keep it swirling and pour without delay... even then I sometimes get that "plop" at the end. Has anyone tried a pause in the middle of the pour to swirl the pitcher and re-integrate before finishing when pouring with skim? I may mess with this next time I'm on bar...
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On the take away menu's, Love is described thusly:
"The perfect drink for the perfect person, at the perfect time, on the perfect day."
Our response to people who get no Love:
"Sorry, our Love is not for sale."
and
"Sorry, you can't buy it--you have to work for it."
Wish I could make it out to the SE! A Skim Showdown sounds amazing!
Brady said:Chris Y. Gaoiran said:Brady,
Whether it started out that way and we just carried it on as a tradition, or maybe it just became a store-wide phenomenon, but at my old place (Barefoot Coffee) the cappuccino became the drink of choice to recommend. Always. First time? Capp. Can't decide? Capp. Been a regular and want to try something else? Capp. On the menu, that beloved drink of drinks was listed under a different name with "Market" as the price. LOVE, as it quickly became known, became the default drink for co-workers on and off shift, former employees, our roasters (who roast at a separate location), and friends of all stripes. I didn't think about it much then but LOVE is the perfect name for a drink we spent so much time honing. Sure, you could find it at other coffee shops, but you always knew you were at Barefoot when you could get a delicious creamy cappuccino practically thrown at you as you walked through the door. It's that kind of shop.
As for having it on the menu and not being available to the general public: yeah, it's "just" a cappuccino, but having it made for you by friends without having to shell out cash is way different than having it made by strangers and having to pay for it. So yeah, LOVE it is.
Beautiful. So one could walk in and say "give me some love" and get a cappuccino? What a concept!
Bam Bam and Ricky... we've been threatening to do a skim-only throwdown at one our TNTs... you are welcome to join us :). This is great advice, and precisely what I do when using skim. Gotta keep it swirling and pour without delay... even then I sometimes get that "plop" at the end. Has anyone tried a pause in the middle of the pour to swirl the pitcher and re-integrate before finishing when pouring with skim? I may mess with this next time I'm on bar...
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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My experience with stopping and starting is that it always kills my art, no matter what the milk type. The top of the cup just becomes too hard to break up if I stop and then start again. Maybe I'll try doing this step faster and see what I get. I'll post back to the thread later today after my shift.
-bry
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