Tasting or Cupping your espresso....
To all those interested in fine tuning there spro shots. What do you look for or taste for when getting dialed in for your taste buds?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on
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When I used to be an archer and especially the learning phase, often someone would get closer to the bulls eye than me, I would not stop till I put one in closer then the last arrow.
Bring 'um on.
Anyone up for a straight shot throw down?????????? I have a lot of work and shots to pull to come close to some of you folks here but a challenge I will always welcome. When competing in tavern darts some years ago, I found I only improved when I threw next to someone better than me.
Joe
-- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Joseph Robertson said:Ricky,
I'm glad you said that. It gives me something to shoot for...............
Joe
Ricky Sutton said:You aren't going to find a house espresso much better than Stumptown's Hairbender.
Alex Stoffregen said:I would see someone about getting a better house espresso...
Ricky Sutton said:My house espresso is a quite dynamic 5 bean blend from almost every major growing region. This means that my shots can one day taste like cherry pie filling, and the next taste like beef gravy. Unfortunately, i cannot rely on standard mechanisms, like "sweetness" to dial the espresso in. If it's tasting like tomato soup & black pepper, there probably won't be much sweetness. The same goes for any other standard dialing in concepts.
Honestly, i just balance dose, volume & extraction time until i get something that doesn't have any defects. If nothing tastes bad then i'm good.
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Hey Simon,
I just wanted to take time to thank you for this post. Most coffee schools and roasting schools do not have time to teach these "behind the scenes" details that most of us have to learn as we go or (LAWG). I think I will call it what it is. Now before I Open and insert foot I will say that I have not been to Matt's our host's school so I'm not speaking of his work. Although I would love to take classes from him.
Back to my point Simon. Common Sense some say? Yaa right! The only common we have going here is our love and passion for the black elixor of the God's and some of us much more.
It takes many shots and many tickled taste buds to understand this quote from John P. here, "Good may be subjective, but bad is clearly definable. I am looking for good."
Most of all I want to AGAIN thank our host for making this forum available to us all. Once in a while we touch on something really practical. This is really the core of what quality control is all about. Thanks all.
JR
-- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Simon Ouderkirk said:I know that folks hate to hear this, especially newcomers to the whole tasting biz, but eventually you'll become tuned in to certain markers in your espresso that will help to identify what changes you'll need to make in order to get the taste you're looking for.
I know that when I'm trying to really dial in an espresso, it's important to experiment and taste every shot. That second bit is the most important thing I'll probably ever say, so I'll say it again: taste every shot. It's rewarding to do a few shots that are pretty far off, dosing below and above what you suspect the ideal dose will be (or what dose you're already using in the shop) and really inspect the taste closely. It probably won't be nice (though it may surprise you!) but it's important to get a feel for what an underdosed shot tastes like, and what an overdosed shot tastes like. This is sort of like personal calibration. I'd recommend messing about with grind sizes as well.
Once you have an idea how different factors (dose and grind size) can impact your cup, then you can try to really dial in your espresso, armed with these ideas as to what "too fine" or "updosed" looks like, tastes like, feels like, etc.
We use a SO blend from Colombia, and I generally know I'm getting close when the acidity begins to settle down into something fruity, and the finish swells from bitter notes to bittersweet bakers' chocolate.
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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Yes, but Fraser, there also is no I in Bryan... at least not if your parents spelled it correctly on the birth certificate. ;)
-bry
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Permalink Reply by Fraser Jamieson on
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I knew that. And you never had a TV show named after you either. ;)
Bryan Wray said:Yes, but Fraser, there also is no I in Bryan... at least not if your parents spelled it correctly on the birth certificate. ;)
-bry
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Permalink Reply by Joe Smith on
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Try cafe grumpy's Heartbreaker blend. Its waaaaayyy better. (but thats just my opinion)
Ricky Sutton said:You aren't going to find a house espresso much better than Stumptown's Hairbender.
Alex Stoffregen said:I would see someone about getting a better house espresso...
Ricky Sutton said:My house espresso is a quite dynamic 5 bean blend from almost every major growing region. This means that my shots can one day taste like cherry pie filling, and the next taste like beef gravy. Unfortunately, i cannot rely on standard mechanisms, like "sweetness" to dial the espresso in. If it's tasting like tomato soup & black pepper, there probably won't be much sweetness. The same goes for any other standard dialing in concepts.
Honestly, i just balance dose, volume & extraction time until i get something that doesn't have any defects. If nothing tastes bad then i'm good.
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1.texture
2.color
3.taste, find out what the flavor profile is from your roaster and try to match it.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on
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Balance of bitter and sweet. Great flavors, great finish.
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Permalink Reply by Alex Stoffregen on
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Are you using hairbender? Your description of a 5 bean blend that varied in taste from day to day didn't sound like it was working for you. In my experience roasting, the more beans in a blend, the less clarity on flavor. Tom from sweet marias has written on the topic and says that he personally doesn't use more than 3 origins in a espresso blend, because it confuses the cup. There is simply too much going on, and there is variability as the coffee matures (Coffees develop different flavors as they mature after roasting, and with 5 coffees changing at different rates, it is hard to keep consistency, even if you are pulling perfect shots every time)
I'm not trying to bash your shops espresso, i'm just wondering if you find the variability in your cup to be a positive thing, or if you are looking for something more consistent.
Alex Stoffregen said:I would see someone about getting a better house espresso...
Ricky Sutton said:My house espresso is a quite dynamic 5 bean blend from almost every major growing region. This means that my shots can one day taste like cherry pie filling, and the next taste like beef gravy. Unfortunately, i cannot rely on standard mechanisms, like "sweetness" to dial the espresso in. If it's tasting like tomato soup & black pepper, there probably won't be much sweetness. The same goes for any other standard dialing in concepts.
Honestly, i just balance dose, volume & extraction time until i get something that doesn't have any defects. If nothing tastes bad then i'm good.
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Alex,
I had the good fortune to take a lecture from Dr. Joseph John of Malabar Gold on blending for espresso. He mirrored Toms comments on staying with a 3 bean blend. That is not to say you can't come up with an "award" winning spro with more beans as some on this list have done just that. Can you repeat the flavor profile with more than three beans. That is the issue here or one of them. As a commercial roaster and a new one at that, I'm trying to keep the variables as simple as possible while I learn what is going on with blending and tasting spro.
Joe
-- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Alex Stoffregen said:Are you using hairbender? Your description of a 5 bean blend that varied in taste from day to day didn't sound like it was working for you. In my experience roasting, the more beans in a blend, the less clarity on flavor. Tom from sweet marias has written on the topic and says that he personally doesn't use more than 3 origins in a espresso blend, because it confuses the cup. There is simply too much going on, and there is variability as the coffee matures (Coffees develop different flavors as they mature after roasting, and with 5 coffees changing at different rates, it is hard to keep consistency, even if you are pulling perfect shots every time)
I'm not trying to bash your shops espresso, i'm just wondering if you find the variability in your cup to be a positive thing, or if you are looking for something more consistent.
Alex Stoffregen said:I would see someone about getting a better house espresso...
Ricky Sutton said:My house espresso is a quite dynamic 5 bean blend from almost every major growing region. This means that my shots can one day taste like cherry pie filling, and the next taste like beef gravy. Unfortunately, i cannot rely on standard mechanisms, like "sweetness" to dial the espresso in. If it's tasting like tomato soup & black pepper, there probably won't be much sweetness. The same goes for any other standard dialing in concepts.
Honestly, i just balance dose, volume & extraction time until i get something that doesn't have any defects. If nothing tastes bad then i'm good.
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Ricky,
Thanks for the "Clarification" ;) Someday I hope to taste your spro.
Joe
--
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform
Ricky Sutton said:Hairbender works well for us in some respects. It's super complex, which means that i can coax multiple interesting flavors from it depending on how it's treated. Common sense dictates that an equal amount of every bean won't end up in every shot. So there's an obvious shot to shot variance. There's usually a good amount of variance between roast dates as well. Plus every 3 months, the blend changes completely.
While these things sound like road blocks, consistency is not my ultimate goal. I just want something to taste good, and surprise me once in a while. My customers dig that their drink can taste so different depending on the mood of the coffee and how i'm treating it. Of course, if i wanted to keep my brew temp at the EXACT same
place and keep my dose, volume & extraction time at the EXACT same place, Hairbender would always just taste like Hairbender. Which is pretty much what the Stumptown locations do.
My personal preference is for SO's for the sake of clarity & 2 bean blends for the sake of balance.
Alex Stoffregen said:Are you using hairbender? Your description of a 5 bean blend that varied in taste from day to day didn't sound like it was working for you. In my experience roasting, the more beans in a blend, the less clarity on flavor. Tom from sweet marias has written on the topic and says that he personally doesn't use more than 3 origins in a espresso blend, because it confuses the cup. There is simply too much going on, and there is variability as the coffee matures (Coffees develop different flavors as they mature after roasting, and with 5 coffees changing at different rates, it is hard to keep consistency, even if you are pulling perfect shots every time)
I'm not trying to bash your shops espresso, i'm just wondering if you find the variability in your cup to be a positive thing, or if you are looking for something more consistent.
Alex Stoffregen said:I would see someone about getting a better house espresso...
Ricky Sutton said:My house espresso is a quite dynamic 5 bean blend from almost every major growing region. This means that my shots can one day taste like cherry pie filling, and the next taste like beef gravy. Unfortunately, i cannot rely on standard mechanisms, like "sweetness" to dial the espresso in. If it's tasting like tomato soup & black pepper, there probably won't be much sweetness. The same goes for any other standard dialing in concepts.
Honestly, i just balance dose, volume & extraction time until i get something that doesn't have any defects. If nothing tastes bad then i'm good.
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Permalink Reply by Chase Mann on
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At my previous employer (coffee Roaster and Supplier Caffe Calabria) we had a branded custom "Calabria Blend" of various beans which we then blended after roasting and cooling.
Not only is it a very nice, perky, medium-ish coffee blend used for drip coffee, but also a superb espresso blend. We roasted each individual origin to just before it fully caramelized so that the caramelizing would complete during the brewing process.
I have NEVER found a better espresso ... and I'm saying this without being employed by them anymore! I will go out of my way to get my espresso drinks from Calabria ... I once took two buses just to get some.
The taste is always like a sweet and slightly-tart dark-chocolate. yum. Yum. YUM!
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Nice Testimony Chase.
Joe
-- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Chase Mann said:At my previous employer (coffee Roaster and Supplier Caffe Calabria) we had a branded custom "Calabria Blend" of various beans which we then blended after roasting and cooling.
Not only is it a very nice, perky, medium-ish coffee blend used for drip coffee, but also a superb espresso blend. We roasted each individual origin to just before it fully caramelized so that the caramelizing would complete during the brewing process.
I have NEVER found a better espresso ... and I'm saying this without being employed by them anymore! I will go out of my way to get my espresso drinks from Calabria ... I once took two buses just to get some.
The taste is always like a sweet and slightly-tart dark-chocolate. yum. Yum. YUM!
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