Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Stormer on August 1, 2008 at 11:30am

You've touched on a fascinating, recurrent cultural theme: when the inability to acquire a commodity creates a feeling of inferiority, one of the most frequent defense mechanisms is to negate the value of that commodity. This can be seen historically in the folklore of the Ancient Hebrews where the god of a bunch of backward poor shepherds - surrounded by rich, powerful agricultural societies - shows a divine preference for meat sacrifices over grain in the story of Cain and Abel. Today it can be seen in the aversion that the poor of the United States frequently have toward expensive fruits and vegetables. It is no surprise at all that those unaccustomed to (or materially incapable of partaking of) fancy-schmancy coffee culture would develop a distaste for it.

But if you think that the marketing strategy of a company like Monster represents a resistance movement of the oppressed, you have missed the mark entirely. Monster doesn't care about the poor. They want the business of the poor (or "working class") just as much as you do. The difference is that they have a marketing scheme that appeals to the poor more effectively than yours. If you change your marketing strategy to be more competitive in that respect, you're not "joining the resistance". You're just making more money. There's nothing wrong with making more money as a small business owner, but that's a far cry from a resistance.

If you want to eliminate class oppression, you need to eliminate class because class IS oppression. If you're feeling radical enough about the resistance, you would have to start by freely giving and sharing equal control and ownership of your shop with your working-class employees. That's right - despite their exceptional understanding of espresso culture, baristas are the poor working class, too. It goes to show that coffee education will not elevate quality of life for the poor, but it will elevate YOUR quality of life. I gladly encourage you to do so, but just don't call it a working class resistance.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Hooton on August 1, 2008 at 11:56am

I like what you have here Joe. I mentioned in an earlier post that my business philosophy is odd. I come from a background that includes non-profit charity and community building organizations. In turn my inclinations for running a coffee shop follow those models more. (We have yet to see if we will truly succeed.) I don't own the coffee house I direct. It is a non profit effort of our local high school teamed up with other community organizations like area churches. As much as I'd like the shop to be my baby, I want more the input and exctiement of our Baristas, most of whom are high school students getting a state of the industry training that will serve them well as they go off to college.

We've been building slowly, intoducing coffee culture to the young and building a grass roots following before we launch en force. As we consider marketing to come, I want to continue the community building emphasis we have been working with for some time. I want to get the old folks who go to McD's for coffee with their friends (and complain about it being to strong) to come over and be a part of the community. I want the factory workers from down the street to stop in on their breaks. It is a matter of viability and keeping the doors open but not primarily of profits.

You're right I don't think that companies like monster care about the working poor, but they do a good job of pandering to their sensibilities at our expense.

Joe Stormer said:

You've touched on a fascinating, recurrent cultural theme: when the inability to acquire a commodity creates a feeling of inferiority, one of the most frequent defense mechanisms is to negate the value of that commodity. This can be seen historically in the folklore of the Ancient Hebrews where the god of a bunch of backward poor shepherds - surrounded by rich, powerful agricultural societies - shows a divine preference for meat sacrifices over grain in the story of Cain and Abel. Today it can be seen in the aversion that the poor of the United States frequently have toward expensive fruits and vegetables. It is no surprise at all that those unaccustomed to (or materially incapable of partaking of) fancy-schmancy coffee culture would develop a distaste for it.

But if you think that the marketing strategy of a company like Monster represents a resistance movement of the oppressed, you have missed the mark entirely. Monster doesn't care about the poor. They want the business of the poor (or "working class") just as much as you do. The difference is that they have a marketing scheme that appeals to the poor more effectively than yours. If you change your marketing strategy to be more competitive in that respect, you're not "joining the resistance". You're just making more money. There's nothing wrong with making more money as a small business owner, but that's a far cry from a resistance.

If you want to eliminate class oppression, you need to eliminate class because class IS oppression. If you're feeling radical enough about the resistance, you would have to start by freely giving and sharing equal control and ownership of your shop with your working-class employees. That's right - despite their exceptional understanding of espresso culture, baristas are the poor working class, too. It goes to show that coffee education will not elevate quality of life for the poor, but it will elevate YOUR quality of life. I gladly encourage you to do so, but just don't call it a working class resistance.

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Permalink Reply by Jake on August 1, 2008 at 1:09pm

This is a very interesting topic to me, as I'm a barista in a small town in the epicenter of America's 'rust-belt.' The town used to have 19,000 residents, it now has about 9,000 after the collapse of the steel industry. While bigger towns, such as Pittsburgh have transformed and turned to other industries, our town has never really recovered. Some would say that the residents here are still waiting for the steel mills to reopen, twenty-five years after they closed.

Adding another dynamic to our town is the college located here. It's a private school with a tuition that typically costs more than many residents make in one year. The college drives most of our business and when students students leave, so does most of our business. The locals who typically frequent our shop are those who work at the college, usually with masters degrees and Phds. It's been a constant struggle to get more local business from those who don't work for the college.

Here's a couple reasons I think that we don't have more working class residents in our shop:

1) We don't know them. Most coffee shops aren't started by 'working class' residents. The startup capital required, entrepreneurial style, and familiarity of coffeeshops caters to educated, upper-middle class people. We tend to associate with people similar to us, and therefore marketing and customers tend to be people like us, the upper-middle class. (I tend to discern classes moreso by education level and ability to advance in career opportunities than by income, so I would consider the majority of baristas to be middle class and above).

2) They feel they don't deserve quality, that it is reserved for the elite. In many poor communities quality is sacrificed for price, as is evidenced by the rise of fast-food. This is evidenced by the statement that I so often hear when I'm making drinks: "just give me a cup of coffee", along with the converse statement that is rarely said aloud, "I don't want any of that fancy, elitist, latte coffee." A prime example of this happened in Youngstown, Ohio, about an hour away from our shop. Tom Buffenbarger, president of the machinists' union, speaking at a Hillary Clinton rally, called Obama supporters a bunch of "latte-drinking, Prius-driving, Birkenstock-wearing, trust fund babies." I'm not posting this about political allegiances but rather to better understand the working class. It's an interesting statement to find what the working class typically associate with lattes.

3) The quality that we offer isn't the quality that they desire. Surely it's tough to change perceptions with everyone, but I've found there to be a bigger gap in working class ideas. I've had more requests from working class residents for hazelnut flavored coffees or french-vanilla cappuccinos (i.e. gas station push button instant milk makers). I'm not sure where this stems from, perhaps the marketing for working class people. Most of the items marketed to the working class tend to be sugar-laden, supersized junk food.
The example by Chris about Monster energy drink is perfect. Looking at this a little bit more, energy drinks tend to be marketed towards different classes. Redbull can typically be found at 'classy' bars served with vodka. A 6oz mixed drink for someone in the upper-middle class is fine. Monster on the other hand, seeks to characterize itself on the massive size of the drink to the working class. Therefore, working class people associate size with quality. Trying to sell a 6oz cap to a working class resident is a much harder sell than a upper-middle class resident who is familiar and accustomed to drink sizes under 20oz.

At this point I'm not sure if I have any answers or solutions, but I suppose finding the underlying reasons can be a start.

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Permalink Reply by Jake on August 1, 2008 at 2:40pm

Jason Scheltus said:

Some industries like to keep exclusivity i.e. diamonds, Krug, etc., but there must be products or services that have once been seen as fancy but marketed to everyone. Maybe looking to some producers in the wine industry?

I don't know, tough question.

I think one industry that has done a good job of marketing to everyone is the microbrews. As I mentioned before, I'm in a small town with the majority of the town having a working class background. When I moved here I was happy to find several bars that serve good, quality beer (cheap too!). One bar boasts over 100 beers and another has several microbrews on tap (Magic Hat #9 for $3.50?! I'll take two!). These bars seem to be the place where anyone is welcome, everyone is comfortable there and there's something for everyone. At this point, I don't think we can say that about our coffeeshop. Partially our fault and partially the perception of the people.

One thing that has helped microbrews is the obvious quality difference between different beers. With coffee it's much more nuanced. As Summer noted, most people (regardless of class) don't know the difference between coffees. In this regard, we're much more like wine, with a difficult ability to understand taste to the untrained.

I know nothing about wine, I just buy whatever happens to have the coolest looking label. I suppose many people feel the same about coffee. So while we could go about trying to teach everyone to have a discernible palate, perhaps we just need to make some cool packaging to put our quality coffee beans in.

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Permalink Reply by Jake on August 1, 2008 at 7:29pm

jeff webre said:

So screw the rhetorical propoganda, just make it look nice?? Ignorance is bliss, eh? I actually like this idea. Quality is overrated; aesthetics, convenience, and routines get people who are not rich to spend money much more often. Is this what you are suggesting??

I think you've got it. Infact, I would say that it's even more than just the poor that do these things, it's all of us, from rich to poor to inbetween. I highly suggest watching Byrant Simon's lecture at the Taste3 conference. Byrant is a professor at Temple University and is currently studying Starbucks and the people who buy (or don't buy) from there. It's an excellent piece and I think it fits very well into this discussion. Barismo posted the video on it, you can check it out here: http://www.barismo.com/2008/05/gimmicks-and-designs.html

While I highly suggest watching it, if you don't get a chance to I can sum up some of his thoughts.

I want to say that not every person exhibits each of these characteristics on the same level and Dr. Simon often says this. However, we can begin to see 3 specific reasons why people buy Starbucks (and many other things for that matter):

The first is functional. This is simply the caffeine aspect of it. Pretty much everyone can agree on this one, we like coffee because we enjoy the caffeine in it.

The second reason is emotional. He lays out a couple different emotional responses, one being the sense of belonging. By mastering the coffeehouse language, you belong, you can 'talk the talk'. For myself, I don't like going to hardware stores because I don't know how to speak the language. I just know I need some bolt that will fit in the hole that I need it to. I don't know that it's a #9 sized bolt with a non-galvanized finish. I'm sure you can imagine some business where you feel uncomfortable going to because you can't speak the language. Once you master the language, however, you now belong. If I know how to speak the hardware store lingo, I'm fine. I can chat with the old men about hardware all day long. Same goes for people coming into coffeeshops.

The third reason that people buy Starbucks is because it expresses something about who we are. He says this is the strongest reason that he has found why people buy Starbucks, it tells people around us something about who we are. He focuses specifically on the architecture and interior design of the store. It's made to look expensive, a luxury. It's not a McDonalds and everyone knows that. Starbucks is created to have a sense of urban sophistication and intellectualism that comes from it. By participating in the Starbucks experience, we hope that some of that urban sophistication and intellectualism will rub off on us, or at least appear so.

Now here's where all the expressive part of starbucks that goes down the tubes. The working class (who I still haven't defined at this point) don't want to associate themselves as sophisticated urbanites. What Starbucks is and defines itself turns off people. And infact, the coffeeshop nature as a whole can turn off many people. Many see indie coffeeshops as the same nature and style as Starbucks.

As a final point, McDonalds has been making a big push on their espresso drinks. They're running Cafina super-automatics and investing lots of money into their machines. Recently their coffee was rated as better tasting than Starbucks. However, they're not focusing on this better quality at all. Rather, they seek to differentiate themselves by being unsophisticated and unpretentious. One of their websites, www.unsnobbycoffee.com says that there are no crazy names or languages needed. It'll be interesting to see how McDonalds performs with adding these drinks to the menu.


So now that i've taken a roundabout way to your point, I would agree with you when you say that people will often choose aesthetics, convenience, and routines over quality. Here is where the difficulty lies: what the working class desires in aesthetics is completely different than what the typical coffeeshop offers. Simply put, they don't feel welcome. The sheer nature of a coffeeshop, the DNA of a coffeeshop, can completely turn off the working class.

And that is why McDonald's lattes may thrive in the working class market. Not because they offer better quality, better 'aesthetics', but simply because they aren't a coffeeshop.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Hooton on August 1, 2008 at 10:41pm

Well said Jake. Leaves me wondering if there is any hope for me with the working folk. Perhaps it is just a matter of finding the pocket of wannabe intellectual urbanites, like me, in this rural setting. Or perhaps McDonalds will make my shop less frightening in the long run.

Man I hate going into hardware stores - especially since I'm usually modding my machine and not plumbing a bathroom sink or something sensible like that. I appreciate the comparison. My wife always says I sound like a pretentious jerk when I go into a coffee shop expecting the baristas to know what I mean when I order a six-pack americano.

This whole discussion is a part of my coming to terms with being at home in a community I don't fit in. Can I bring my love for coffee culture and community here? or must I leave it behind to find true community. These are deeply spiritual and sociological questions I wrestle with, and may not find an answer.

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Permalink Reply by Russ Warren on August 2, 2008 at 5:22am

Chris Hooton said:

Well said Jake. Leaves me wondering if there is any hope for me with the working folk. Perhaps it is just a matter of finding the pocket of wannabe intellectual urbanites, like me, in this rural setting.

Don't give up so quickly on this ill-defined group of people because of the ever-shifty words of Liefer (for the record, Jake and I are colleagues and friends, so I'm allowed to say that). The largest problem, hit on and skirted around this whole time, is that some aspects of established coffee culture (the language, the hipsterism, the ironic hats) does not translate to different settings. However, since culture is ultimately malleable, there is no reason why a coffeeshop that serves quality coffee with proper technique shouldn't thrive in a "working class" environment. If you try to fit a square peg (say, Seattle coffee culture) into a round hole (say, Pittsburgh), then you will probably find that it can get part of the way in, but certainly not all the way through. The question that has to be faced is: how can I make my shop fit organically into this culture? It is a question that I didn't fully think through as I opened my shop, but one that challenges me daily and determines a lot of decisions--we don't want to gentrify our area, we just want to work and live in a good place with good people. Maybe, as Mr. Webre suggests, the emphasis on "quality" or farm relationships isn't the route to go, at least not how it has been done. Many "working class" folk that I know know what quality is, but haven't really dealt with it on a culinary level--the bridges are there to build, but we lack the engineering skills, so to speak.

The biggest issue, I think, is time and the trust that comes with it. As you start out, people will be wary. We named our shop specifically with the town name in it to fight against the idea of "we are here to make money and then will move to the ritzier parts of the area". Instead, we wanted to emphasize our connection to the community and our desire to stay-put, offering good coffee not just to high-end clientele, but those of fixed or lesser means. As we are here longer, more and more locals come into our shop, they are beginning to trust us and we are beginning to get a better grasp of how to serve them. At the end, we certainly won't be cookie-cutter corporate coffee.

So maybe conceiving of this in terms of "resistance" isn't the best way to go. The goal isn't to radically changed the System or take down the "Man", but to live life where you are with your neighbors and enjoy them as they enjoy you and your work.

My two cents.

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Permalink Reply by Joshua Longsdorf on August 10, 2008 at 4:50pm

First off aren't we as baristas working class our selves, I mean I'm not even blue collar. I think the inability to connect with the customer is within the person behind the counter. I'm very familiar with the Michigan consumer and some of my best customers when I was there were factory workers or construction or any other "blue collar" worker you can think of. You ask if we should join them in their resistance to the controlling class, well isn't that something the cafe has more often then not stood for. As far as the higher class, they are often the hardest to reach because they have their college degrees and bank roles of cash and well they already know everything. I've found that it's harder to sell great coffee in Napa, Ca then it was in Ypsilanti, Mi.

I have a co-worker that feels it's ok for him to come off pretentious, I disagree with this 100%, anyways he thinks because we offer an amazing product he can act this way. I can see the legitimacy of his argument and he does really well with customers but if it is pretension you are putting out are you doing it with the best product out there. What roaster do you use? I mean there are only a few select roasters in Michigan that are even offering a good product. Was that hershey's I saw on the counter? I spent a better number of my days in the mitten and from experience when in a small town I would usually have to go to Starbucks after trying to take something down from the local cafe because at least at Starbucks I could get what I expected. If you're trying to compete with the mean green machine with Paramount or Coffee Express coffee, Davinci syrups, and Hershey mochas then I would go to Starbucks too. If you want to be the best offer the best and no we're not here to be snobs, one of my favorite cups of coffee is the one I drink at 4 am at the coney island down the street from my old house in Ypsilanti, Mi. Yes I took it black. It was what it was and I knew what I was getting. I have friends that are brewers that still drink Old Style or High Life. We are here to offer an amazing product and educate the consumer so they can appreciate it but we ourselves have to be educated as well. Do you know what your espresso is made up of or what varietals your coffees are? Can you talk about what you get out of a cup of coffee as far as notes but at the same time leave enough room for the customer to interpret the coffee for themselves?



You want to see good coffee getting out to the working class, drive down to the Ugly Mug in Ypsilanti, Mi. Ask Billy Bones from your friends list to meet you, he lives right there.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Hooton on August 31, 2008 at 6:21pm

All this talk about working class resistance makes me want to get my proletariat green Viva Barista Shirt!

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