Non-degasser valve bags a bad thing?
I've been looking at 1/2 pound bags for home roasting. Initially, I liked the thought of the super decked out bags the big companies seem to use. They are all foil lined with degasser valves and a slick...what vinyl outside?
I recently developed a liking for the really simple bags coava, blue bottle, and stumptown use. They are recycled (or can be), and are just super plain old style "popcorn" like bags with a poly..something lining.
Question: Do they seal the bags? Wouldn't they burst? Are the valves really THAT necessary?
It seems to me that you could let them degas a bit, then package them up. It seems simple, especially since you should be drinking your coffee before you need to worry about how long it stays fresh. I leave my coffee in the bags always, and I also don't buy a lot so I can drink it within two weeks or so.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on
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I agree with the last premise, but if I'm shipping coffee, I don't expect the valve to be at the top for long, if ever.
Brady said:
That's the part that I never quite understood about Nitrogen flushing. I can see it for greens or for repackaging beans several days off roast, but fresh stuff?
Let's also remember that the CO2 that the beans are kicking out is coming from the beans themselves, so should tend to displace the gas mixture remaining between the beans... and if I'm not mistaken, CO2 is more dense than "air" so, if the gas valve is at the top of the bag (often the case) should fall to the bottom of the bag and force the remaining "air" out the valve? Curious to see responses to these questions.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Anderson on
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That's a great point, I was actually just packing some sealed bags with the valve on the side. We will have to see if we can make them fit with the valve on top. I know at least our 5lb bags are packed and stored with the valve on top.
As for tasting the difference, that is an interesting question. I'm sure it has been studied, but it also seems relatively easy to reproduce. I might have to add that to the list of things to test in the lab. I would be really surprised if there was no difference, my hypothesis is that "most people" could taste the difference within a month.
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Well, that's likely, but my coffee almost never sits for that long. :/
Matt Anderson said:
That's a great point, I was actually just packing some sealed bags with the valve on the side. We will have to see if we can make them fit with the valve on top. I know at least our 5lb bags are packed and stored with the valve on top.
As for tasting the difference, that is an interesting question. I'm sure it has been studied, but it also seems relatively easy to reproduce. I might have to add that to the list of things to test in the lab. I would be really surprised if there was no difference, my hypothesis is that "most people" could taste the difference within a month.
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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I use foil lined gussetted valve bags for our company. I started with the paper/poly-lined bag and they worked good to start. However, after a while my customers kept questioning the integrity of the paper bags. I too wanted better bags to ensure the coffee would stay fresh that much more longer. I also feel more comfortable knowing the bag is heat sealed during shipping as well.
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Permalink Reply by John Gibbons on
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This is quite the discussion now! Well, I guess the small paper, poly lined bags are fine for me. I will use a pound in about a week or a week and a half. But, for wholesale, it seems that there is a new sustainable bag that needs to be designed.
Designers...GIT ON IT! :)
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Permalink Reply by Matt B on
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Brady,
There are a few knowledgeable folks (I think I remember Mark at Taylor Made writing this on coffeed?) who assert that, if you package your coffee within an hour of roasting, you don't need to nitrogen flush--the de-gassing forces 99% of the oxygen from the bag. But again, in order to gain the benefit, you need to pack within that hour window, b/c you need to utilize the entire de-gassing period to flush all the oxygen from the bag. There's a lot of space in a bag of whole bean coffee.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Ah, just found the coffeed one. Thanks for the tip on that.
Here's Mark Inman's quote, which you were referring to:
"...I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if you able to package your coffee into a valve package quickly from the roaster (under 1 hour), then nitrogen flushing is not necessary.
With my experience with both bagging and canning coffee, when I package my coffee within an hour of roasting, the massive release of C02 from degassing forces out all the ambient oxygen, leaving a stable environment for adequate preservation. Numerous 02 testing confirms this theory..."That reads more like a statement about not needing nitrogen flushing within the 1-hour time period, but the point is well made. Not sure what the "if you're packaging more than X hours after roast, you need to flush" version of that statement is. Will look around later.
Always nice to learn more on a subject. Thanks for sharing.
Matt B said:
Brady,
There are a few knowledgeable folks (I think I remember Mark at Taylor Made writing this on coffeed?) who assert that, if you package your coffee within an hour of roasting, you don't need to nitrogen flush--the de-gassing forces 99% of the oxygen from the bag. But again, in order to gain the benefit, you need to pack within that hour window, b/c you need to utilize the entire de-gassing period to flush all the oxygen from the bag. There's a lot of space in a bag of whole bean coffee.
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That is a good thread, Thanks for digging it up!
It also has the post from Jack Hanna saying
the expulsion of CO2 after roast does not replace the oxygen levels 100%, there are still large amounts of oxygen left in the bag after straight packing.
More than 10% in fact, from oxygen metres.I found some one way valve bags we had sitting around on Friday that were sealed 4 weeks earlier without Nitrogen flushing and the average O2 level was over 14%. I know those bags were sealed within 6 hours of roasting, but I can't say for sure they were sealed within 1 hour.
Next week I'll seal up some bags within an hour of roasting and hold on to them for a while and see how that goes.
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Matt, that would be great if you could check that and post the results.
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It'd also be relevant to know what the oxygen level was at that time, with that same kind of bag, Nitrogen flushed. You know, to verify the assumption that the flushed bag would be lower or zero?
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