Drink Size Poll
For an Americano, would you please tell me briefly what size to-go cups your shop uses for Small, Med and Large, and how many shots for each. Also, do you use the same size and ratios for Lattes?
Here's mine:
Small: 10oz cup, 1 Shot.
Medium: 16oz cup, 2 Shots.
Large: 20oz cup, 3 Shots.
I use the same cup sizes and shot for lattes as for americanos.
Here's mine:
Small: 10oz cup, 1 Shot.
Medium: 16oz cup, 2 Shots.
Large: 20oz cup, 3 Shots.
I use the same cup sizes and shot for lattes as for americanos.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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My prototype "perfect americano" was a 8oz double. We offer two strengths, a "more robust" one and a "mellower" one. We sell approx equal numbers of each. This scales as: double or triple 12oz, triple or quad double 16oz, quad or quint 20 oz.
All our drinks scale, except for the trad capp. The basic drink was built with a double, all other sizes are derivatives. In ascending order our drinks are: 2oz double espresso, 4oz trad macc, 6oz trad capp, 8oz americano, 12oz standard capp, 16oz latte.
So no, our lattes don't use the same ratio, they use half the espresso as for the robust americano.
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Permalink Reply by Tim on
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1 shot in a 10 oz cup seems really weak. I think 1 shot in an 8 oz with some room might do alright, but it just seems a bit off.
We are currently offering our americano as a standard double shot in an 8 oz cup to go or in the traditional capp (5.5 oz) for in house consumption. Most everyone likes it the way we serve it or will ask for it otherwise. We are kind of a newer shop, so this could still change, but if the espresso is good, I don't think it would be overpowering in small quantities of water.
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Permalink Reply by Bj Davis on
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12 ounce - double 16 ounce - tripple 20 ounce - quad
Lattes and caps same size, but 12 and 16 get a double, while 20 gets a tripple
Trad cap double in 6ounce to stay or 8ounce to go
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Permalink Reply by The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ on
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Perhaps a better discussion is "What is a shot?" Are you talking about 17g 1.0 oz shots? 23g 1.0 oz doubles? 20 g 1.5 oz doubles? Do you pull the shots the same for lattes as for Americanos?
We rely on an antiquated system of shots and sizes. My answer is to use as much espresso as is appropriate to maintain the proper balance of taste and strength. Simply put, that will vary, and can vary coffee to coffee. With out getting too obsessive, here are some guidelines based on what we did at JavaJ.
8 oz
Double shot, pulled to about 1.5 oz in double basket. Dose varied to coffee. (18-22 grams)
12 oz
Updosed "triple" basket, pulled to 2.0 oz
16 oz
Same as 12 oz or double dose of 8 oz, depending on coffee.
Admittedly this approach is not for everybody. But it worked well for us in a small shop where every barista was required to know our coffees inside and out.
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A very good point, FJ. There's a pretty clear standard for "shot" 7-9 grams pulled to 25-30mL. But how many still use that? For reference our shot is a 14 gram double pulled to no more than 1oz per shot (2oz total)... so pretty restrained.
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I agree that shop's should define a flavor profile for each drink and then try to replicate it, using whatever dose or pull it takes. It is nice to think that we can compare notes using shots and size, but ultimately I don't know what a drink made with 1 shot of your espresso tastes like until I visit. This is why we must travel, eh?
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I would love to come visit your shop Brady, it looks really nice. And I absolutely agree, an owner or barista should know what else is out there.
A quick question for you though...How do you know you are dosing 14 grams? Are you weighing your dose?
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The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ said:I would love to come visit your shop Brady, it looks really nice. And I absolutely agree, an owner or barista should know what else is out there.
A quick question for you though...How do you know you are dosing 14 grams? Are you weighing your dose?
Thanks!
Yeah, I weigh periodically, just to check in. Time to do it again though, I feel like my dose consistency is drifting. Had been pretty solid. Gotta focus!
One question for you... relevant to what I'm working on right now at the shop. Sounds like you vary dose pretty substantially for different drinks. How do (did?) you manage your grind to get extraction time right?
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We don't vary the shots too much from drink to drink. The main variations being slightly longer shots for Americanos and slightly shorter ones for Capps. There is no need to change the grind for just one drink and then back again, see below.
The bigger issue is single origins. We have always had a focus on SOs since the day we opened. The only blends we ever had on hand were traditional espresso blends. So the real issue is not between drinks but between origins or blends. That being said, taste is the only real tool you need. Taste enough espresso, and eventually you will intuitively know when to pull a particular coffee say tighter for an espresso to reign in that acidity, or when to up the dose a nudge to bring out more concentrated fruit to cut through the milk in a Capp.
Think of espresso as an algebra equation. There are many ways to get to "X." Some say never adjust any variable but your grind, and that is a good way to start. But once you have that down, experiment. We have "rules" in espresso, such as 7 grams per shot, 9 bars of pressure, 25 second extraction, 201.5 degree temperature, 40 Lb tamp, etc. These are not rules, they are guidelines. There is not anything I just listed that was not constantly tweaked at JavaJ. But in thinking of extraction as an equation, if I change one variable, what happens to the others? For example, if a shot is coming out too fast, what are my options? The first and most obvious is to change the grind. But what if I just want to change this one shot? I can up the dose, tamp harder, or both. Or I change the grind and do all three. Or, I can change the grind TWO notches finer, LOWER the dose, and keep the tamp constant. IN EACH INSTANCE THE SHOT WILL TASTE DIFFERENT.
Assuming I was pretty dialed in to begin with, merely changing the grind to get to my desired extraction time is probably all that is needed to continue on. If I had just updosed, I might fix the problem of extraction time, but at the risk of upsetting the balance of the espresso, most notably the acidity. Had I chosen to only adjust my tamp, I can probably expect an increase in bitterness. I open myself up to an increased chance of channeling, and can probably only hope to slow the shot down by a few seconds. Or I might taste the coffee and determine that it tastes too thin, too acidic, and has no complexity. In which case I would adjust my grind finer by two notches, lower my dose by a gram or two, and tamp my usual tamp of 40 Lbs.
So to sum up a very long winded post, we didn't worry so much about "managing" the grind, at least no more than usual.
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Sounds like since the larger-scale variations are mostly between two different coffees (which clearly require two different grinders anyway) this problem would be nonexistent.
You know, I've seen lots of posts about dialing-in espresso and the variables that are at our disposal when trying to get a shot to taste "just right". That was about the clearest one I've seen. I'm going to print it out and stash it with my collection of training material.
Thanks J.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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I really just meant to have a quick poll about how many shots people are using in what size cup, regardless o how many grams or ounces they are, or why.
But since your replies are so interesting, I'll go with the discussion.
One reason I'm interested is because we don't have enough "black coffee" sales to warrant using a drip machine. All "drip" orders are espresso-based.
Now, maybe I don't understand the concept of an Americano, but I thought it's purpose was to use enough espresso to make the drink tast like an "american-style" drip. In my opinion, and in that of most of my polled customers, one Shot in a 12oz cup is plenty to make it taste like light-roast brewed coffee. 2 Shots in a 12 oz. makes it taste like a dark roast, and it's almost too strong.
And 3 shots in a 16 oz. would be overpowering. I, as a barista & espresso-drinker, enjoy it, but I think most would not. Oh, and 2 shots in an 8 or 10 oz cup could only be appreciated by espresso drinkers ( .03401 % of my customer base).
I have used 1.5 oz shots because that was the WBC norm when I opened my shop. But I've been doing 1oz shots lately. I personally can taste the difference when I drink straight espresso, but in an Americano, I taste no appreciable difference between the size of the shot, be it Lungo, Regular or Ristretto. I doubt many customers would.
Also, about 85% of our sales are for small drinks. Very few want 16oz.
My shops are in Mexico, by the way. So there are cultural variables also.
The taste I prefer to offer in a Small, is that of 1 Shot in a 10oz cup, but that cup has been consitently rejecte by my customers as being too small.
I've got to decide on some cost-effective ratios, or I might be out of business.
The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ said:We don't vary the shots too much from drink to drink.
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John Kijote said:I really just meant to have a quick poll about how many shots people are using in what size cup, regardless o how many grams or ounces they are, or why.
John, as I understand it, the factor that is mostly going to define the strength of your drink is the amount of ground espresso that you use to pull the shot. That's why this is so relevant. I can't taste your shots to know how strong they are, but can get a good idea based on how much espresso you use. Obviously, blend and roast will effect the overall flavor, but dose is maybe the biggest factor.
John Kijote said:Now, maybe I don't understand the concept of an Americano, but I thought it's purpose was to use enough espresso to make the drink tast like an "american-style" drip. In my opinion, and in that of most of my polled customers, one Shot in a 12oz cup is plenty to make it taste like light-roast brewed coffee. 2 Shots in a 12 oz. makes it taste like a dark roast, and it's almost too strong. And 3 shots in a 16 oz. would be overpowering. I, as a barista & espresso-drinker, enjoy it, but I think most would not. Oh, and 2 shots in an 8 or 10 oz cup could only be appreciated by espresso drinkers ( .03401 % of my customer base).
I agree with your definition of an americano.
This again is why it is so important to talk about dose weight. If I drop a single 1oz shot of my espresso (which used 7grams of espresso) into a 12 oz drink I can still see the bottom of the cup. One of my 2oz doubles (using 14grams espresso) is pretty good and roughly equivalent to a lighter drip brew. Three shots (3oz, 21 grams) is rich and assertive - roughly equivalent to a "proper" cup of coffee.
I could be way off base her, but I'm going to guess based on your description of the finished drink that you are either really updosing (21g+) your doubles OR you are saying shots when you really mean doubles. If I dropped 2 doubles of my espresso into a 12oz americano, I'd be the only one in my shop to drink it.
Post back please and let me know how many grams of espresso you use for each single shot and what your volume is. I'm curious now.
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