Coffee that's TOO FRESH?
In the most recent AA Café Podcast (Recorded fairly regularly by the fine folks at DoubleShot Coffee Company in Tulsa, OK) the crew discusses how fresh should espresso be when it is served. Apparently at the SCRBC, Isaiah got comments on how the beans were too fresh after sitting for three days. Most competitors opted to hold their coffee ten days for it to "peak." Brian (DoubleShot's roaster) says that coffee served past a week from roast is probably stale and cites a presentation from the last SCAA conference.
What are your opinions on this? In my own experience, I have had coffee that I found more enjoyable after it has sat for a week, as well as coffee that has lost flavor and texture from sitting for the same period of time. Is this a phenomenon that varies by roaster?
What are your opinions on this? In my own experience, I have had coffee that I found more enjoyable after it has sat for a week, as well as coffee that has lost flavor and texture from sitting for the same period of time. Is this a phenomenon that varies by roaster?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Nick Cho on
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Good discussion!
"Freshness" or "days off roast" is something that anyone who's been involved with competitions talks and thinks about a lot. Problem is, in my experience, it's something that's greatly oversimplified.
The conditions that the coffee is stored during the "resting" period is a critical element in this discussion. Is it in a generally airtight container (Tupperware)? Is it in a sealed foil-lined bag with a one-way valve? Is it in a plastic-lined paper bag? Is it just opened to the air?
Cold? Warm? Humid?
Is it in a loud room? A quiet room? Are you reading to your coffee before it goes to bed each night? (<--- joke line)
In competition, you're trying to maximize certain elements, and crema stability is an important one. Fizzy crema (if it looks bubbly, hold it up to your ear... often it's audibly fizzy) isn't going to perform as well in competition.
That said, ultimately it's about the taste experience. I'm the one who told Isaiah his coffee was likely too fresh at the SCRBC, and that's because it was a little fizzy. It tasted good, but part of de-gassing coffee for espresso (in my experience) is that if there's too much CO2 that wants out, the water can't get in to extract as well, and I believed that Isaiah's coffee could have tasted better.
The down-side to it is that indeed, the longer you're days-off-roast, the less fresh it is. The holy-grail of espresso is finding a way to get the CO2 out, without the coffee going stale. Right now, it's time and de-gassing, and that lets CO2 out but also goes more stale.
In the end, though, it's not about theories or ideas or what conference presenters say... it's about what yields the best taste experience. Try different things and taste the results... that's all that matters.
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Permalink Reply by Charles Weber on
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Out gassing is a chemical process. The coffee isn't a balloon full of C02.
That being said... I don't think or I'm not sure that a vacuum would change this process much, as in acting on the speed of the degassing. I don't see a vacuum sucking out more C02 than would normally be available as the bean changes state as in oxidizing ??
I could be wrong.
Brady said:This difference still really blows me away. I agree, it is good to wait several days to a week for things to mellow out for espresso. But I also think that a coffee is generally at peak flavor for FP or other low-pressure method 2-3 days out of roast and noticeably faded at the 7 day mark. If you are brewing press and you let it rest for 10 days, you'll have missed the party.
It just seems a shame that what is clearly the peak of flavor and complexity in the bean is overshadowed by other stuff (CO2, right?) when it becomes espresso. So here is a question... I've heard some here say (but not verified myself) that vacuum packing roasted coffee is not so good, since it will cause the bean to kick off its CO2 too soon and stale too rapidly once its opened. If this is true, has anyone ever see if this could be used to our advantage in espresso? Basically sucking out some of the CO2 that is causing problems prior to that 4 day mark so that the coffee can be used as espresso while things are still uber-fresh? Just asking, cause it might be fun to try...
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Permalink Reply by Joshua Longsdorf on
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While I was at the Ugly Mug in Ypsilanti, Mi Zak and I along with Jim Saborio did a series of less than scientific tests based on rest dates. We found that each of the coffees had it's own ideal rest date before use. Jim even went as far as blending his espresso the day of competition using coffees with different rest dates for glrbc that year. I guess I'd be curious to know if the comments were actually on the caps and not the espressos. "Too fresh" espresso in a milk drink will cause bubbling on the surface due to the degassing. I know that there are some top level cafes out there that rest espresso two weeks in a vacuum sealed bag before using it. Devin Pedde went as far as adapting his sig drink during each round of wrbc this year due to the changes that occur from one day to the next due to degassing and oxidation. Is it a phenomenon...maybe, I think it's something that varies distinctly between each coffee and I would imagine each roaster.
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Permalink Reply by Troy Reynard on
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I think it should rest for a day or two after roasting and then probably trails off in flavor after a week.
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Permalink Reply by Tamara Vigil on
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after scanning this post I haven't seen any mention of altitude. at the mountain regional competition we (cultiva) were shocked at how our espresso reacted. It was coming out extremely bubbly and looked very fresh even though it had been roasted 4 days prior. In nebraska we generally wait 3-4 days before brewing - certain colorado roasters wait at least a week. amazing
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While elevation would definitely be a factor in this I would have to say that at 4 days you'll probably see degassing at any elevation. Here in the bay area, elevation 52 ft, we still see bubbles at least in milk drinks after only 4 days rest. Does Cultiva use an Aurelia. If not the difference could have also been caused by the machine.
Tamara Vigil said:after scanning this post I haven't seen any mention of altitude. at the mountain regional competition we (cultiva) were shocked at how our espresso reacted. It was coming out extremely bubbly and looked very fresh even though it had been roasted 4 days prior. In nebraska we generally wait 3-4 days before brewing - certain colorado roasters wait at least a week. amazing
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We have a GB5 and a Linea. However our espresso was not nearly as bubbly at the midwest regional in st. Louis, again 4 days after roast.
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Hmmm, I don't know if the two can exactly be compared directly because now we are talking two different roast dates which I would think would be a variable to consider. Also was the coffee single origin or blend. If blend was the blending and roasting consistent in each batch.
I just had a little thought, it would seem to me that after the same period of rest and part of that time being in Denver for the one and St. Louis for the other that the St. Louis should have actually been gassier. If elevation did have an effect I would think that the higher elevation, less atmosphere, would allow for degassing at a faster rate meaning the beans would be depleted of co2 more quickly and would then have less to offer while being pulled on the machine. Of course I could be wrong and degassing could be a process occurring at a constant rate being it is a chemical reaction and then elevation would have no effect.
Can anyone offer more insight on the actual degassing process and if it's a constant or not?
I think the biggest variable that effected the espresso would have been the climate. Denver being very dry and St. Louis being very humid.
Tamara Vigil said:We have a GB5 and a Linea. However our espresso was not nearly as bubbly at the midwest regional in st. Louis, again 4 days after roast.
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there are too many variables!! haha somebody do an experiment please.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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How about a thought experiment? Speculating about the "extra bubbly" aspect of the finished espresso at altitude - I suppose there would be a lower solubility of the CO2 in the espresso at altitude, so it might bubble a bit more and look more like you'd expect a "fresher" espresso to look. The question for Tamara is, did it have that sharp harsh taste? I'd bet not. I don't see how there could be more CO2 (as carbonic acid) in the shot... it probably just came out of solution faster than you were used to seeing.
I've not played with pulling shots at different altitudes. Tamara and others competing in this region, I suppose you have more experience than others with this... as a practical consideration, its not something most of us deal with.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on
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Yes and No, first it varies by bean origin and blend. Then comes in the roaster and roast level. In the end the time to serve depends on individual cupping and the taste buds of the cupper.
Joe
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Permalink Reply by Aaron McNany on
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Any reason why more time is required for a French press than a Vac-pot? I don't see the correlation...
Kayakman said:"out gassing" or days off roast is also different depending on the brewing method. What I have found is that with Vac-Pot only 24 hours is needed, with the French press 36-48 depending on the bean.
I agree with what others have said here. When espresso brewing much more time is needed off the roaster. Now that I know this is a factor for espresso shots, we will taste test a batch every day off roast for 14 days and record the results. This we will repeat with each of my bean types until we find the ideal "off roast" time for each.
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