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Permalink Reply by The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ on April 27, 2009 at 9:03pm

Hi Al, hope business is good.

I have a La Spaz at home (Vivaldi II) and normally work on a LM professionally. I definitely prefer the 58, I think it is much more optimal when it comes to temperature. That said, I get really good shots off the La Spaz at home, often better than I get at even the better cafes in town. The main thing to know about the 53 mm is that it holds in the heat more than the 58. Basically, I am just more mindful of the brew temp and the dose. (I dose lower and use a lower brew temp).

Cheers,

-J.

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Permalink Reply by Al Sterling on April 29, 2009 at 6:13pm

Biz is OK, but as everyone might agree....... there's more room for improvement nowadays than in decades!

And about the 58mm PF vs the 53mm, I started with an Expobar HX machine with the 58mm, and I just have this feeling that with PF's, 58mm is better. I've never heard the story of why 58mm was chosen? Maybe someone has the "inside skinny?" Seems that if you enlarged or reduced the diameter of a PF from 58mm, at some point you'd get diminishing returns in quality and consistency. But like I've said, I haven't seen the documentation. I'm just trusting the numbers.

The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ said:

Hi Al, hope business is good.

I have a La Spaz at home (Vivaldi II) and normally work on a LM professionally. I definitely prefer the 58, I think it is much more optimal when it comes to temperature. That said, I get really good shots off the La Spaz at home, often better than I get at even the better cafes in town. The main thing to know about the 53 mm is that it holds in the heat more than the 58. Basically, I am just more mindful of the brew temp and the dose. (I dose lower and use a lower brew temp).

Cheers,

-J.

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Permalink Reply by The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ on April 29, 2009 at 7:01pm

I would agree, instinctually, that 58 mm is better. I also recall reading at some point that, yes there was a specific reason 58 was chosen, and that it had to do with balancing between too thick of a cake, where you get an uneven extraction, and too thin, where the cake breaks apart. Perhaps someone (Jason?) can add more specific information. I would say that as we now know that channeling is such an issue, that again 58 mm seems like it is superior, allowing for a more even extraction. That is my opinion, though I do get great shots off my 53. Again, temperature seems to be the main issue to me.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on April 30, 2009 at 2:48am

Hi,

i will get all the tech details together, and post soon.......

jason
C.M.A Astoria

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Permalink Reply by Jason on April 30, 2009 at 6:14am

Ok, so here goes.....

There are a few reasons why we (CMA) use the 53mm group in the Plus 4 You machine. Having said that we use both 53mm and 58mm in our machines.

Heat is not main reason as some people think, a 53mm or 58mm handles in our machines have the same thermal mass, the 58mm has the same brass content. Its just WIDER and FLATTER, so the difference in heat would be very hard to quantify.

We use the 53mm group because we wanted to achieve the "best" consistent Italian espresso, using a 7gram dose.

a 53mm "stacks" the 7grams much better, and is so much more forgiving. (on tamp consistency for example).
A 58mm handle and 7grams, can be affected much more as the surface area is larger, that is in contact with the coffee and can give you inconstant shots.

Most people using a 58mm system, will over-dose a single shot handle to compensate, wasting coffee or not use a single shot handle at all and use a double shot handle and "disguard" the other shot.

In a +4U, you don't need to do that at all, its designed to produce a perfect espresso using exactly 7 or 14grams at the required extraction temperature, and to maintain that extraction temperature to +/-1degree constantly. It will even advise the Barista to adjust the grind accordingly, if the extraction is out side the parameters set by the engineer/customer on machine installation ( every espresso is checked on production if required!)

The machine delivers quality and consistency in the cup, using only 7 or 14 grams. And the best possible espresso.

if you have any other questions...... Ask away??

Jason
C.M.A Astoria.

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Permalink Reply by Al Sterling on May 2, 2009 at 10:54am

Jason...... So now I'm thinking I'll go back to my espresso bar and try my single dose baskets, just to see what happens. Your post made me think 53mm was better for singles, but then I Googled Tristan Stephenson's blog, and a page on the +4U. His blog post referred to the 53mm PF's on the +4U...... but only the Italian version? Although I'm a firm believer that the weakest link in the "espresso quality chain" is the barista, removing as many variables as possible should always be the goal. I still don't know if the 53mm contributes to that, or quantitatively isn't really an issue? Maybe the "range" for optimal commercial basket size actually is 53-58mm? I'm guessing CMA Astoria, the +4U and maybe you, will be at the Coffee Fest LV? I'll be there Friday and Sat. After viewing the Astoria website, I'm intrigued.

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Permalink Reply by John P on May 2, 2009 at 7:45pm

I have a 49mm basket on my Olympia Cremina lever machine and I can nearly match the shots I have had on a standard LaMarzocco with 58mm (non-PID).

I think that the designers (hopefully) of each machine have chosen the optimal basket for that particular machine.

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