Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Marrocco on May 4, 2009 at 11:53am

Real world coffee houses can adhear to ideal practices. Isn't this what the third (some are mentioning shyly and perhaps presumptively "fourth wave" even) shops all about. Second wave gurus can say what they may. It doesn't taste good. They are not comparitive. If you would like to go on serving your customers and yourself frozen beans, I am not going to stop you. But as more and more shops begin to increase quality stanards, self education and customer education you will find less and less people in your store. Which, is fine by the rest of your competitors. The main reason I am asking you to consider foregoing your freezing practices is only out of a strong desire to be a coffee advocate. Your coffee beans are crying in your freezer. Show them some warm love, not the cold shoulder.

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on May 4, 2009 at 12:36pm

Forget the 2nd, 3rd, 4th whatever Wave BS. George Howell is one of the leading cutting edge coffee proffessionals advocating not just freezing greens and roasts but pioneered things like vac'ing greens at origin. On arrival his greens are not only vac'd been frozen to yes, keep them fresh.

"Are we concerned with quality and truly considering this? Quality is summed up in one word, freshness." As a roaster are you going through the added time and expense of vacuum sealing and freezing your greens? Freshness is far more than just post roast date...

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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on May 4, 2009 at 12:47pm

he does freeze the greens, but what does he say about roasted coffee? This isn't an argument, it's a question.

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on May 4, 2009 at 1:17pm

"For longer term storage beyond four or five days after opening, place the coffee in the freezer either packaged as described above, or, better, repackaged into zip-locked one-day portions. This way no condensation will occur as you pull out only what you need."
Link to his roasted storage article here.

Jesse -D-> said:

he does freeze the greens, but what does he say about roasted coffee? This isn't an argument, it's a question.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Marrocco on May 4, 2009 at 2:09pm

Jay,

You are a coffee professional for whom I have a great deal of respect. I thoroughly enjoyed your "lobspro" and the discussion which stemmed from it at the USBC. I apreciate you years of experience and expertise. I have defended you in conversations surrounding your "anticks", which I percieve as pushing the industry in a good direction, and told you so in person while at the USBC. I concede that if you are able to get fresh coffee out of the roaster, vacuum seal it so that there is no air (thus water vapor), put it in a flash freezer, and then allow it to thaw to room temp. thoroughly before opening the seal, thus guarding against any possibility of condensation freezing is a viable option when NEEDING to preserve coffee for a LONG TIME.

BUT.... This is a big but: my argument is that A) we should not put ourselves in the position to need to store coffee in this way. You said it yourself, "I don't argue with the position that it's best to use only fresh coffee. In fact, if you've got your operations to a point where your supply is perfectly timed to receive and use your coffee within X days out of the roaster then all the better." So, if fresh coffee is ideal, and frozen coffee is not, then there is something about frozen coffee that does not add up to the quality of fresh coffee that has never been frozen. Therefore, if quality is our #1 concern we should not freeze coffee. B) Quality should be our #1 concern. I will say that I know I would get amazing service and quality at your establishment. I know that you strive for excellence. This is just one area that I disagree with you on.

Now for the steak: In terms of deffending my steak choosing honor I am a midwesterner, born and raised in Missouri. I have eaten more grass fed beef than most. I know that if you had the opportunity to eat that same frozen steak when it was fresh you would do it. The steak you ate from the farmer's market was flash frozen as well in a freezer that was -60 degrees F. Plus, you also admitted condensation on it when it thaws. A fresh cut is the best cut. This is why restaraunts cut their own beef the day they serve it. You don't know where I get my steak either. There is no need to be coy with me. Can we not debate freezing vs. freshness without getting personal and vindictive? Freezing does stall off-gassing just like it stalls spoiling. Yet, fresh is best, and I promote freshness over convenience.


Jay Caragay said:

Freezing causes the destruction of the wonderful properties of the bean??? Such as???

As an operator with, in conjunction with one of our roasters, nearly ten years experience with freezing coffees, statements such as the one above are complete bollocks. Freezing will not destroy your coffee. Nor will it cause the crystallization of water in the bean to destroy the structure. Nor will it impart off-flavors as it would under refrigeration.

I don't argue with the position that it's best to use only fresh coffee. In fact, if you've got your operations to a point where your supply is perfectly timed to receive and use your coffee within X days out of the roaster then all the better. However, we don't always have things timed perfectly and, sometimes, a case is made for frozen coffees.

Frozen coffees will hold your coffee at whatever stage it was at freezing. Coffee needs five days post roast when you deep froze it after two days? Then six months later when you pull it from storage, it's gonna need another two days to reach its' peak.

Condensation from thawing? It's really not happening. At least not as it would had you pulled a steak from the freezer. Quite simply, the water content in coffee is too low (about .03%).


And speaking of steak, I'll take that frozen rib eye from my local farm over that "fresh" cut corn-fed USDA prime angus you bought at the store anyday - and I'll guarantee that the flavor of my frozen will blow away that piece of meat I wouldn't feed to my dog.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Marrocco on May 4, 2009 at 2:17pm

I would say the same thing if I wanted to sell huge ammounts of bulk coffee to uneducated customers who were concerned primarily with caffiene consumption. I am not. I am concerned with quality. I am concerned with getting coffee with high integrity into people's hands before that integrity begins to dwindle. We do have vac sealed green coffee. Not all of our coffee is vac sealed. We do not store coffee in our warehouse for more than a week or so green. I do respect the forerunners of where we are today. I do respect you and your opinion. I simply disagree and practice something different. I find that what I do provides a better tasting product. I have not done any research on freezing green coffee. To that subject I have no interjection. I understand that freshness is far more than a post-roast date. Yet,... all of these arguments are a derivative of the point of this conversation and the persuit of quality which is still the one root word, "freshness."

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

"For longer term storage beyond four or five days after opening, place the coffee in the freezer either packaged as described above, or, better, repackaged into zip-locked one-day portions. This way no condensation will occur as you pull out only what you need."
Link to his roasted storage article here.

Jesse -D-> said:

he does freeze the greens, but what does he say about roasted coffee? This isn't an argument, it's a question.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on May 4, 2009 at 2:51pm

Joe-
As you've already clued in on, I'm not against fresh. In fact, I'm an advocate for fresh products. However, situations may present themselves where storage is a necessary alternative. In those circumstances, I recommend freezing as the solution which will best preserve the flavor of the coffee without serious compromise to the coffee.

Many reasons offered against freezing coffee just do not hold under scrutiny. Some may say that freezing seriously compromises the flavor but our experiments have not demonstrated those theories. One argument against freezing is back to the structure of the coffee and its' supposed destruction by freezing. As a corollary, freezing a tomato has devastating effects on the structure of the vegetable due to its' extremely high water content. Roasted coffee has less than one percent water content and freezing does not compromise its' structure nor has it had a tremendous impact on the coffees' flavor.

One thing to note is that I mention that it does not have "a tremendous impact" on flavor because I've found it nearly impossible to know for sure. The green coffee is a constant state of change, forcing minute to significant changes in roasting as the coffee matures, which means that the coffee is in a constant state of flux. Today's coffee sample that we're freezing will not be the same as the same lot of coffee freshly roasted three months from now as a test.

To my mind, the one true measure is the taste in the cup. Whether it comes straight from the roaster or straight from the freezer, how does the coffee taste? Is the quality up to scratch? The bottom line is our guarantee of quality. That guarantee that we're going to serve you something we think is delicious. This is our promise to our customers and this is what we strive to deliver on a daily basis.

Quite frankly, I don't think there's a need for concession. Some, like yourselves, will take the hardline of "no freezing" and that's fine. One thing you should have realized by now about me is that, unlike many people we know in the business, agreement is not a prerequisite for me. I don't think we disagree on terms of fresh coffee. Our difference lies in the possibility of using freezing as an alternative storage method for coffee.

Another note on the steak thing - as a lover of grass fed beef yourself, I presume you can tell the difference in flavor between grass and corn fed beef. With that in mind, would you choose frozen grass fed beef over fresh, corn fed beef? If corn, why?

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Permalink Reply by Joe Marrocco on May 4, 2009 at 3:13pm

After this discussion I will seriously discuss this further with my fellow roasters. I agree 110% with the flex that green coffee continues to go through. It really is quite astounding how many variable there are to a good cup of coffee, much less a mind blowing cup. I do take a rather ard line, this is true. If a customer came to me and had a situation in which he/she had to store coffee for a longer period of time I would certainly say that in this situation freezing is the only option. However, I would personally give up some vac sealed small bags and make sure we could insure the highest quality possible upon opening. My main issue is in putting ourselves as the professionals in a position where freezing becomes necisary. I think we both, as well as our fellow posters, are all striving for the same things; quality, excellence, flavor, integrity, etc... I would love it if i had the opportunity to cup and anylize all of this with you all. I just do not have that ability. I will try to be open minded and consider your arguments, seriously.

As for the beef question (and thanks for the levity!!) I honestly prefer different experiences at different times. If I want a buttery melting steak, I'd like it from a corn fed cow. This is especially true if I knew the farm and knew what kind of corn, etc... Grass fed has a stronger taste and is much leaner. I love this some times as well. What I really like is venison however. This is usually frozen, ironically.

Jay Caragay said:

Joe-
As you've already clued in on, I'm not against fresh. In fact, I'm an advocate for fresh products. However, situations may present themselves where storage is a necessary alternative. In those circumstances, I recommend freezing as the solution which will best preserve the flavor of the coffee without serious compromise to the coffee.

Many reasons offered against freezing coffee just do not hold under scrutiny. Some may say that freezing seriously compromises the flavor but our experiments have not demonstrated those theories. One argument against freezing is back to the structure of the coffee and its' supposed destruction by freezing. As a corollary, freezing a tomato has devastating effects on the structure of the vegetable due to its' extremely high water content. Roasted coffee has less than one percent water content and freezing does not compromise its' structure nor has it had a tremendous impact on the coffees' flavor.

One thing to note is that I mention that it does not have "a tremendous impact" on flavor because I've found it nearly impossible to know for sure. The green coffee is a constant state of change, forcing minute to significant changes in roasting as the coffee matures, which means that the coffee is in a constant state of flux. Today's coffee sample that we're freezing will not be the same as the same lot of coffee freshly roasted three months from now as a test.

To my mind, the one true measure is the taste in the cup. Whether it comes straight from the roaster or straight from the freezer, how does the coffee taste? Is the quality up to scratch? The bottom line is our guarantee of quality. That guarantee that we're going to serve you something we think is delicious. This is our promise to our customers and this is what we strive to deliver on a daily basis.

Quite frankly, I don't think there's a need for concession. Some, like yourselves, will take the hardline of "no freezing" and that's fine. One thing you should have realized by now about me is that, unlike many people we know in the business, agreement is not a prerequisite for me. I don't think we disagree on terms of fresh coffee. Our difference lies in the possibility of using freezing as an alternative storage method for coffee.

Another note on the steak thing - as a lover of grass fed beef yourself, I presume you can tell the difference in flavor between grass and corn fed beef. With that in mind, would you choose frozen grass fed beef over fresh, corn fed beef? If corn, why?

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Permalink Reply by Brady on May 5, 2009 at 5:53am

Hi guys. Thanks for a great debate on this subject, and for linking to so much useful info on the subject. I totally agree with the conclusion that peak fresh is best, but it is good to see that freezing may be an acceptable option. I'll be doing some experiments on this in the near future.

I can two situations where this might be helpful, if deep-frozen espresso does turn out to be pretty good:

Decaf Espresso... we're doing this already with decent results, but I can see we have room for improvement in our process. I don't have a vac-sealer in the shop but can certainly order it vac-sealed in 1lb prepacks from the roastery. Will try this.

Backup Espresso... especially at this time of year, we struggle with widely varying sales volumes. This translated into real stocking problems for us for 2 weeks last month - one week where we nearly ran out and had to use under-rested espresso, another where the espresso was a little past its prime and falling off. Not good.

We can and should talk about smart inventory management, but I'd be willing to bet that none of us get it right all the time. Having a couple of peak-rested 2lb valve bags in the freezer would create a safety net and lessen the penalty for getting it wrong. I know that on several days last month our espresso would have been better if we'd been doing this.

Again, thanks for a great discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on May 5, 2009 at 6:20am

Brady-

You bring up a good point. We find that decaf is a terribly poor seller but we must maintain a supply because there is a small demand (I would prefer to eliminate). That said, we routinely freeze our decaf stock to keep it as best as possible as we find it degrades much more rapidly than any other coffee.

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