Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jan Wardeska on January 1, 2008 at 3:47pm

I am using the barest bones available from Yahoo! as that is who is hosting our site at this point. They have software called SiteBuilder, and when I say bare bones, I mean bare bones. I am weighing the options of what to get and am thinking of DreamWeaver as we want Flash, etc. What are you guys using? Thanks!

Permalink Reply by Dave White on January 7, 2008 at 3:58pm

A word on Flash for you. As someone who develops and even once knew Flash back in the day I personally consider it a major waste of time and money. There are exceptions to the rule and it is all in how you use it as well but when it comes to Flash intros... I skip them every time.

Dreamweaver on the other hand is a great (if not the greatest) tool for WYSIWYG site construction and editing.

Good luck!

Permalink Reply by Greg Cross on January 7, 2008 at 4:47pm

Hey Jan,

I took a look at your site - really isn't that bad. Trust me _ I have seen far, far worse sites. Just curious ... what is it that you would like to do that you currently are not able to do?

Permalink Reply by Jan Wardeska on January 7, 2008 at 5:59pm

Hey David and Greg,

Thanks for the insights. We've discussed using flash as it seems to be so "professional looking" and attention grabbing. I personally always skip flash when I'm online, but I've dealt with websites so much that I could care less about anything extraneous. However, we want to develop the site to be as "state of the art" as possible and to be interactive, especially when it comes to seeing the actual plantations from which our coffee comes. I want the ability to do 360s and galleries. As well we would like to have the site interactive with people being able to share information in as many ways as possible.

I am concerned that my web knowledge is quite old, as I learned HTML about a decade ago by viewing source and finding Internet cheat sheets on code. I need as much WYSIWYG as possible. I want a clean site, I like a classy, sleek feel, with the perks that people may be looking for. I am torn between wanting to skip the flash-ier stuff and yet being able to compete with the fancier web tactics.

At this point I am not sure where to even find the information I need that will tell me what people actually WANT to see, versus what people THINK they want to see. Every IT guy I talk to feels the same way about Flash being skippable, but then every other person I talk to says, "Oh, do you have Flash on your site? It's so cool." What do we do? Is there a good article you guys can recommend that perhaps can answer this question for me?

I need a cup of coffee....

Permalink Reply by Dave White on January 8, 2008 at 8:32am

I totally agree with you that Flash can be very cool. Like espresso equipment in most cases its not so much what you got but how you use it. I've known one guy in my graphic design career that could both program and design great Flash sites and elements. Unless you find one of those rare guys out there it takes a designer and developer/programmer team to make great Flash work and look it's best.

Stumptown's website is a great example of a smooth and professional Flash execution, that to me doesn't look very "Flash" except for some functionality like section transitions and such.

Good luck!

Permalink Reply by Greg Cross on January 8, 2008 at 10:06am

Also keep in mind that a site TOTALLY done in flash (even the pages) are not at all SEO friendly. Search engines do not like them and for that I steer my clients away from a totally Flash driven site. Flash is great when it comes to design elements on a site or to leverage photos, etc.

David - the StumpTown.com site is cool ... but they are not harnessing (or letting the Search Engines) the full power of the Internet and Search Engines by having a totally Flash site. Looks nice, but in the end, IMHO, only hurts their online marketing leverage. Not good in a very competitve business environment.

If I may ... below are 2 good examples that highlight flash as a design element, and yet lays down an HTML element where meta-tags/keywords can be used by search engines, and ultimately increases their online marketing:

http://www.harvestcanton.org/
http://premiergolfonline.com/

Good discussion!!

Permalink Reply by Dave White on January 8, 2008 at 4:00pm

It's true that Flash isn't as search engine friendly as other pages can be.

However type in "Stumptown Coffee Roasters Portland" or "Stumptown Coffee" or "Stumptown Portland" or even skup Stumptown and type "coffee roaster Portland" into Google. They show up as #1 for all those searches and their page title and description meta tags does the work for them in this case.

Most cafes websites (which I assume we are talking about) will not get great results in Google with simple specific searches like say "cafe". They'll need to be careful when writing page titles and descriptions to include city names, neighborhoods, and specifics like that to be found. If I am looking for a cafe in Chicago let's say I'll be typing "Chicago cafe" or even including neighborhood names for the areas I am searching.

The majority of cafes are not marketing anything over the web besides their location, company statements, hours and maybe menu contents. All their business is done in store.

Permalink Reply by Greg Cross on January 9, 2008 at 10:10am

Ahhhhh ... David - but what true coffee-shop owner (entrepreneur) if shown how would not love to increase their marketing reach (hence their bottom-line) beyond the four walls of their shop to the world? The internet via their website can accomplish just that. All it takes is a marketing strategy and some consulting know-how to make it all happen. Being content to stick with "location, company statements, hours and maybe menu contents" - well there is lots more potential for business growth than just that. Depends on their gumption level and strategy to move it forward!! Anyone interested in moving coffee business forward and earn more money in 2008?

Permalink Reply by Dave White on January 9, 2008 at 11:12am

Hmmm. After working this in this industry for a 5+ years I think I know what the majority of coffee shop owners are looking for. If they are up here they are quality orientated individuals who want to make the best coffee possible and reach out to and educate the people in their communities about what good espresso and coffee is.

For coffee shops moving their business forward and growing usually entails adding equipment, opening new shops or even sometimes simply advancing their skill sets.

I see Jan works for a place that presumable roasts and sells coffee. Coffee roasters are an exception, most coffee roasters are and should be set up for shipping orders daily. I did assume we were addressing cafes in this particular thread and my responses have been geared in that direction.

For the average cafe or even small chain, counter sales are what they are set up for and what they want to do. The last thing most cafe owners or employees want is to process and confirm payments, pull inventory (which they have to stock), box up products, weigh packages, print out shipping labels and run a handful of boxes down to the local post office or UPS hub everyday. Even if you skipped the last step and had USPS and UPS pick up, they charge for daily pick ups unless you meet a minimum which could cost them their profit of said web sale or possibly lose money depending on the size or number of orders.

My responses have been very candid as even though I make and maintain websites I don't sell said services. I was just responding honestly to Jan's concerns regarding HTML and Flash for her cafe site. I'd have very different advice for someone wanting to start or grow an online and mail order business.

Permalink Reply by Greg Cross on January 9, 2008 at 12:29pm

Your thoughts help to provide clarity to our discussion ... thanks!

Permalink Reply by Greg Cross on February 10, 2008 at 3:35pm

Hey Aaron,

Do you mind sharing the URL?

Greg

Permalink Reply by Rich Westerfield on February 28, 2008 at 10:03pm

Not to piss on anyone's business here, but even before we knew we were going to open, we knew we'd be using Typepad for our shop's web presence. Been blogging since 2002 and we just knew that was what had to be when we opened up in late 2004.

Granted, we don't sell beans online and don't have need for secure online shopping cart software - but there are ways to handle that as well with other blog software. Costs of hosting are near nothing. But you've got to put the time into it to develop appropriate and worthwhile content.

Pick your search term - Best coffee/espresso/cappuccino/latte/barista/coffeehouse Pittsburgh - or most any other string you can think of relating to quality coffee - we're in top 10 on Google, usually above the fold. Couldn't do that with a static website unless we invested heavily in SEO marketing. Luckily, we don't have to.

Do we give up some design flexibility? Absolutely. Do we care? Not really.

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