Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brady on July 25, 2009 at 6:23pm

I'd say most use automatic, regardless of whether they use the program buttons or not. The more craft-oriented shops use semi-auto... these shops are well-represented here, but are in the minority overall. The chains often go super-automatic.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on July 25, 2009 at 10:21pm

Simply put, you can do no better than a La Marzocco Linea or GB5 in the 3EE configuration.

The machines are the best there are, the question is: are you up to its' challenge?

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Permalink Reply by Kate Stylee on July 27, 2009 at 8:06am

hmmm...can't say I agree about the La Marzocco, but that is only because I have a heart on for my Elektra's... Obviously the machine you should get depends on what your overall goals are...
I would personally recommend a semi. If you're looking for a run of the mill coffee bar, use an automatic. Around here running an automatic would ensuer you the starbucks crowd, but none of the baristas I know really enjoy working on a fully automatic...where's the fun in that?

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Permalink Reply by Bill Warnock on July 28, 2009 at 9:00pm

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

btw electra's are for show call your local service company and ask if they have ever worked on elektra's I'd bet not we dont even carry the parts. LM on the other hand, if you broke it we can fix it immediately! I prefer Lm's they are well built and very temp stable. for the most part stay with your name brands LM, Nuova simonelli, synesso, If you want a pain in the ass machine you cant find parts for even from italy I'll sell you my 1924 Victoria arduino. If you have to have the latest and greatest Id wait the new machines are out in the next month or 2 from Lm and nuova has a new one sometime soon aswell as the slayer machine should be out soon.

BTW price drop on GS3's

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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on July 29, 2009 at 12:36pm

Yeah, matter of purpose and opinion there.

Jay Caragay said:

Simply put, you can do no better than a La Marzocco Linea or GB5 in the 3EE configuration.

The machines are the best there are, the question is: are you up to its' challenge?

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Permalink Reply by Brady on July 29, 2009 at 2:58pm

Bill Warnock said:

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

Hi Bill,

Can you please back that up? Lets use the aforementioned traditional Linea EE vs the automatic Linea AV, using the manual dispense function, of course.

I ask because I was under the impression that these machines were identical except for the water dispense control, and would like to make sure that I understand the situation correctly.

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on July 29, 2009 at 3:09pm

I think that he might just be blurring auto and super-auto into the same thing.

I think we should clarify what we are classifying the machines into:

--Manual: Basically, you are the pump. Usually referred to as lever-machines.
--Semi-Auto: The machine delivers the pressure, you start and stop the shot.
--Auto: The machine delivers the pressure, the machine has pre-programmed options for starting and stopping the shot. Most machines also have a manual option allowing them to function the same as a semi-auto.
--Super Auto: A robot. The machine "grinds," "tamps," and brews for you. Some of them even steam and deliver milk for you. These machines suck, usually deliver an inferior product and take all the fun out of our job. I think everyone would agree with that generalization.

I would somewhat agree about the underdose tamp soft vs. a super auto, but we can all think of some extremes there... But as far as the semi-auto vs. auto, if you have a properly trained barista they should deliver the same product.

Brady you are correct about the water dispense control being the only difference.

Having said all of that BS, I would recommend two different machines, but I'll let you pick the brands. First, try running on a lever machine. The problem with these machines is that you really have to train your staff well and trust that they are working how they should be when you are not around (the staff not the machine). These machines have a high degree of inconsistency if you are not, yourself, consistent. Also, these machines won't be as "fast" as some other options. In my opinion you should be watching the shot no matter what and should never turn your back on the machine. That being the case, these machines aren't actually any slower than a Semi-Auto or Auto. That's basically it for the negatives... may seem to be slower and has greater variables which can equal greater inconsistency. Otherwise, if you are doing what you should, not only do they deliver great product and allow you to manipulate the shots in different ways that other machines do not allow you to, they get the customer "wow" factor because they look great. The customers will instantly know that you are committed to quality when they see you using one of these machines properly and putting out good product.


My other recommendation is to go Auto, but with a catch. Buy the Auto machine and then use it as a Semi-Auto. Don't program the buttons, or program them to deliver such high volumes of water that you have to watch the shot anyway. The reason for this is that when the time comes that you need to sell your machine, you will have better luck (usually) selling an Auto machine over a Semi-Auto and they have a higher resale value that is comparable to their higher initial cost.

HTH,
-bry

Brady said:

Bill Warnock said:

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

Hi Bill,

Can you please back that up? Lets use the aforementioned traditional Linea EE vs the automatic Linea AV, using the manual dispense function, of course.

I ask because I was under the impression that these machines were identical except for the water dispense control, and would like to make sure that I understand the situation correctly.

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Warnock on July 29, 2009 at 3:37pm

ohhhh no im referring to one step push a button (superauto) Brady called it a "robot" and it grinds tamps and brews out of a spout (they are crap they break and cost more than any traditional). not a traditional with flowmeter compared to one lacking.

btw when you program the buttons on a AV it will preinfuse on LM's

Brady said:

Bill Warnock said:

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

Hi Bill,

Can you please back that up? Lets use the aforementioned traditional Linea EE vs the automatic Linea AV, using the manual dispense function, of course.

I ask because I was under the impression that these machines were identical except for the water dispense control, and would like to make sure that I understand the situation correctly.

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on July 29, 2009 at 3:41pm

That's what I guessed... I wish we all had to subscribe to some set of definite rules when describing things, from menus to machines.

-bry

Bill Warnock said:

ohhhh no im referring to one step push a button (superauto)and it grinds tamps and brews out of a spout. not a traditional with flowmeter compared to one lacking,

Brady said:

Bill Warnock said:

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

Hi Bill,

Can you please back that up? Lets use the aforementioned traditional Linea EE vs the automatic Linea AV, using the manual dispense function, of course.

I ask because I was under the impression that these machines were identical except for the water dispense control, and would like to make sure that I understand the situation correctly.

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Brady on July 29, 2009 at 6:00pm

Bill Warnock said:

ohhhh no im referring to one step push a button (superauto) Brady called it a "robot" and it grinds tamps and brews out of a spout (they are crap they break and cost more than any traditional). not a traditional with flowmeter compared to one lacking.

btw when you program the buttons on a AV it will preinfuse on LM's

Brady said:

Bill Warnock said:

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

Hi Bill,

Can you please back that up? Lets use the aforementioned traditional Linea EE vs the automatic Linea AV, using the manual dispense function, of course.

I ask because I was under the impression that these machines were identical except for the water dispense control, and would like to make sure that I understand the situation correctly.

Thanks.

Cool. Agreed with all points in Bill's and Bryan's. Resale was behind my thinking as well. That said, I do really love the relative simplicity of the semi-auto...

So, with the AV, you could program a button for a quick flush, the others super long to allow for a pre-infused manual shot, and leave the manual dispensed for a non-pre-infusion option? Cool. Flexibility is good.

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Permalink Reply by Ken Idskou on August 9, 2009 at 2:03pm

Thanks everyone for the info.

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Permalink Reply by Chris DeMarse on August 10, 2009 at 7:49am

dare you mention how much of a price drop on gs3's


Bill Warnock said:

you can underdose tamp soft/hard anything you want to, to mess up a shot from a traditional machine will never be as bad as the best shot from an auto/superauto.

btw electra's are for show call your local service company and ask if they have ever worked on elektra's I'd bet not we dont even carry the parts. LM on the other hand, if you broke it we can fix it immediately! I prefer Lm's they are well built and very temp stable. for the most part stay with your name brands LM, Nuova simonelli, synesso, If you want a pain in the ass machine you cant find parts for even from italy I'll sell you my 1924 Victoria arduino. If you have to have the latest and greatest Id wait the new machines are out in the next month or 2 from Lm and nuova has a new one sometime soon aswell as the slayer machine should be out soon.

BTW price drop on GS3's

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