espresso + milk proportions
hi all, i'm (finally) looking to gear up to open in a couple weeks and am pondering the espresso menu concerning cup sizes. from my knowledge of the WBC, they seem to use a single shot in a 5ish oz. cup as the standard cappuccino, but i know many of you would disagree. i'm not using a 20 oz., and i'm strongly leaning towards not using a 16 oz. for hot drinks (except maybe drip/pourover coffee). what kind of sizes and proportions are BX members using?
i'm thinking:
double capp in 6-7 oz. cup for dine-in, 8 oz. to-go
double latte in 12 oz. dine-in and to go.
ideas?
i'm thinking:
double capp in 6-7 oz. cup for dine-in, 8 oz. to-go
double latte in 12 oz. dine-in and to go.
ideas?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Aldrich on
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standard latte ratio i have seen is 5 oz milk to one shot espresso, though i want to say i have been to shops where they serve an 8 oz single latte.... maybe this is merely the limitation of 8 oz to go cups being the smallest that come with lids?
if you are not going to offer 16 oz. lattes, make sure that it is very clear to your employees those cups are only for coffee, no exceptions. in my experience, customers can be very convincing in a "but you have the cup right there, can't you just charge me more", sort of way.
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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on
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well when i was in australia it was single everythings in 8 oz. and double everythings in 12 oz. and that went for all the coffeeshops, world-class or no. and yeah to-go cup size being limited to 8 oz. as the smallest is certainly a factor.
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Permalink Reply by Macky Otto on
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Hi Jared, first of all cheers to you for offering a traditional capp in the 6-7 oz. range. I've given a lot of thought to how many different variations could reasonably be offered, and would have to say the solution you came up with is about the best I can think of as well. Has anyone else used this set-up? Do customers ever complain that they're getting less in their dine-in capp cups than the carry out? Are there any 'in-between' sized to go cups on the market other than the standard 8, 10, 12 oz. sizes?
My impression is that the single shot cappuccino in a 5 oz. cup is for competition purposes only, they always seemed more like miniature lattes to me.
best of luck.
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one option for the to go cup capp is to leave a couple inches at the top so you aren't throwing off the ratio from your in house capps, issue with this being customers thinking they are being shortchanged with the empty room at the top of the cup... this is another issue along the lines of only offering drip in your 16 oz cups that can easily be defused with an explanation from your staff, just make sure it is addressed in training if you decide to go with pouring 6-7 oz in the to go cups.
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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Sounds fantastic to me.
I stand right behind Jonathon on being firm about what certain cups are for and what they are not for. If you do offer the 16 oz drip coffee, have your script ready to go as to why it is you don't offer a 16oz latte. We actually do offer a 16 oz latte with "3" shots (18-21 grams, depending on day; pulled to about 3 ounces in 24-28 seconds). It's a less popular size option that our 12 oz that has the same espresso parameters, which I find interesting and encouraging.
-bry
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yeah i just know that even though i firmly believe in keeping drinks within their traditional parameters, i really want a 16 oz. or 20 oz. cup of drip coffee sometimes. just because with drip, the quality of the drink obviously isn't compromised the more you pour like it is with the espresso based drinks (although i guess the same is true of americanos.)
i might consider a 16 oz. to-go latte cause i do have some triple baskets that came with my gb/5.
as far as the cappuccinos, the strange thing is (and this is straight from rob forsyth, the head of the WBC rules committee) they changed it in 2008 so that the "standard" for lattes and cappuccinos were both 6 oz. drinks with a centimeter of microfoam. rob's question (as well as i mine) was how the hell you're supposed to tell them apart. so i think using the WBC as a standard, as someone else mentioned, might be a mistake. at least for cappuccinos. i think the 5-6 oz. single capp is more meant to highlight the barista skill than anything else.
what about maybe a 3oz cup for espressos, macchiatos, and piccolo lattes dine-in, 7 oz. cup for traditional double capps and single lattes dine-in, and a 12 oz. cup for double lattes and americanos dine-in? plus maybe some 10-12 oz. mugs for drip or pourover coffee? then the same 8-12-16 spread to go? or just 12-16? it's a conundrum. at least iced lattes i can just do one size of haha!
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by way of follow-up, i was working on improving my milk last night at the shop i'm doing a little part-time at till my shop is open, and was pouring double lattes in a 12 oz. bowl and i thought the ratio was quite nice. very smooth and drinkable and wasn't cold by the time i got to the bottom. i had a friend come by and i convinced her, after much wrangling, to let me make her a double 12 oz. latte. she works at starbucks and told me after she'd finished the drink that it was the first time she'd enjoyed coffee in years. made my heart glad.
also, after checking visions espresso's collection of sengware (which someone on here said was better and more chip-resistant now? can anyone corroborate?) i think i'll do:
3 oz. for espresso/macchiato (not offering single shots, so they won't look lost in a 3 oz. cup)
8 oz. for double cappuccino, double americano, (possibly) single latte
12 oz. for double latte, pourover drip, triple americano
i'm gonna stick with the americanos as double 8 oz. and triple 12 oz. cause that's consistent with drip coffee caffeine content. i don't think the extra ounce or two of milk in a double capp will screw up the ratio, but i'll have to try it out.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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I like where you are headed. To me, a 12oz double latte/"triple" americano is perfect, as is the 6-8oz double americano. You lose me on the 8oz capp though. They are by definition a 5.5-6oz drink... so I think you are really missing an opportunity to do it by the book. I say go with 3oz, 6oz, 12oz ceramics.
Good luck on the to-gos... nothing useful to add there. You could maybe roll with an 8oz for the capp.... topless if you can't find lids. Lids are for the faint of heart... smelling is most of tasting!
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i was just brainstorming with sengware, they don't carry 6 oz, only 8 oz. i like the idea of a 6 oz. too if i could find matching cups to the rest of the stuff
has anyone had any luck with ancap stuff? obviously they're great, but i can't find any U.S. dealers that have a good selection, and ancap's website is god-awful
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Jared Rutledge said:i was just brainstorming with sengware, they don't carry 6 oz, only 8 oz. i like the idea of a 6 oz. too if i could find matching cups to the rest of the stuff
has anyone had any luck with ancap stuff? obviously they're great, but i can't find any U.S. dealers that have a good selection, and ancap's website is god-awful
What color are you looking at that still has 12oz in stock? Last I knew, Visions was discontinuing the sengWare, and this is backed up by the fact that the majority of the cups only have 3, 8, and 20 oz sizes. Call Visions (or perhaps you already have) and find out what's going on with the cups. Maybe they just need to update the site.
Regardless, I would recommend going with Cremaware from EspressoSupply. White, Brown and Black and sizes available are 2, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 20oz.
-bry
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i was referring to the 12 oz. mugs visions had, and i liked the sky blue color cause it's in my logo. but i'll check the cremaware. why are good cups so hard to find?
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ninth street does an 8 oz. cappuccino, for whatever reason. but after looking at the cremaware, i'll probably do the six ounce.
Brady said:I like where you are headed. To me, a 12oz double latte/"triple" americano is perfect, as is the 6-8oz double americano. You lose me on the 8oz capp though. They are by definition a 5.5-6oz drink... so I think you are really missing an opportunity to do it by the book. I say go with 3oz, 6oz, 12oz ceramics.
Good luck on the to-gos... nothing useful to add there. You could maybe roll with an 8oz for the capp.... topless if you can't find lids. Lids are for the faint of heart... smelling is most of tasting!
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