Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brady on October 15, 2009 at 6:51pm

Andrew Tagge said:

Well, actually, there is a huge difference in the milk texture of a cappuccino and a latte, so the volume of the drink is entirely negligible. A cappuccino is not defined by it's volume, though it is a necessary condition for it to truly be a cappuccino.

Huh?

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Permalink Reply by Alex on October 16, 2009 at 4:58pm

Where I'm from you would struggle to find what you guys call a 'traditional' cap... Most places I know, particularly the more progressive cafes, will stretch no differently with the milk, pour no differenlty, the only difference tending to be that a cap is in a smaller cup than the glass a latte is served in and it has chocolate on top or folded through the milk for arts-sake.

As far as the on-topic discussion goes... I'm astounded by the amount of thought and stress you put into syrups. Where I work I do about 3 coffees with syrups per day amongst the 700odd other coffees, so the thought of doing anything other than pouring a small amount on top of the shot is quite strange to me.

On another note - an American tourist once came in and asked what flavoured lattes we did, I told him "we do vanilla, caramal, and hazelnut - but if your game we have an excellent coffee flavour" he said he'd give it a go, not realising I had actually made a joke, I handed him a regular latte, and he said it was the best he'd ever had... Still thinking I had put some magical syrup in there.

Brady said:

Andrew Tagge said:

Well, actually, there is a huge difference in the milk texture of a cappuccino and a latte, so the volume of the drink is entirely negligible. A cappuccino is not defined by it's volume, though it is a necessary condition for it to truly be a cappuccino.

Huh?

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Permalink Reply by Russell Greene on October 30, 2009 at 2:35pm

i stretch much different on a cap and a latte. Gotta get that cream allot thicker for the cap. Ive only one size of glass so they all get 6oz the capps i make are usually 2oz espresso and 1oz of milk then the rest super thick cream/foam. when i do a latte i try to get the cream the same consistency as the creama so when i attempt to do any art it cuts into the crema and gives solid lines. my machine was pouring blonde shots so we cranked the psi/tmp up and it got my crema a bit darker and gave more body to the espresso shots. a doppio ristretto is where you (restrict/ristretto) fine your grind or overpack and just barely have the smallest amount of coffee to the point where water is runnin down your wall hehe should pour 1oz in like 26-30sec with both heads in once glass.. i like those with just a touch of super stretched half and half. a cigar or pipe with a bit of super dark chocolate for backup is recommended by me.
Andrew Tagge said:

Well, actually, there is a huge difference in the milk texture of a cappuccino and a latte, so the volume of the drink is entirely negligible. A cappuccino is not defined by it's volume, though it is a necessary condition for it to truly be a cappuccino.

Ricky Sutton said:

I think a 6oz. latte is treading a little too close to the borderline of being a capp for my taste. Then again so is a gibraltar, but i drink those on occasion. I never have drinks with syrup, but if i did Monin's Toffee Nut would totally be the way to go.

Russell Greene said:

I usally pull my espresso straight into a 1/2 oz of syrup but I don't make any drinks bigger than 6oz any bigger than that and it's like an espresso in a sea of milk. I asked for a 6oz latte at some coffee bar in snotsdale and the guy looked at me like I was crazy. I actually had to explain to him to only use 4 oz of milk. Toffee nut is where it's at

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Permalink Reply by Brady on October 31, 2009 at 7:09am

Alex said a few things, but the part that made me chuckle was this one:

On another note - an American tourist once came in and asked what flavoured lattes we did, I told him "we do vanilla, caramal, and hazelnut - but if your game we have an excellent coffee flavour" he said he'd give it a go, not realising I had actually made a joke, I handed him a regular latte, and he said it was the best he'd ever had... Still thinking I had put some magical syrup in there.

Brilliant! I've tried that before too, but it only works if the delivery is perfect. Any touch of sarcasm and it goes wrong in a hurry.

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Permalink Reply by Malt Barista on November 3, 2009 at 7:30am

I am in Melbourne Australia.
I currently run 2x Slayer machines. with 3x Mazzer Robur Electronic grinders (for my blends) and 4x Mazzer Robur (from my single origins I swap around every week). It is the fastest set up I have ever worked on. I can ground 25gms of coffee in less than 4 secs! makes for THE FRESHEST and fullest cup you will ever have!!!!

Ricky Sutton said:

I think i will buy a few more grinders and have the option for blueberry latte's with Ethiopian, mocha's with Costa rican, etc. I'm sure that would go over well with my customers and my speed, efficiency & budget. Where do you work, cause' i want to work there too.

Malt Barista said:

To be totally honest, why use syrup at all...rather seek a single origin coffee that would provide you with the flavor profile your after....but I probably have to help you out..

well here it is... besides pre-heating the cup....put the syrup in a shot glass and heat it in a froth pitcher with some water... this makes the syrup the same temp and density of the espresso that you will extract ON TOP OF the syrup....


still think you should look into the single origin thing though...

anywho..cheers

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Permalink Reply by Malt Barista on November 3, 2009 at 7:38am

The "Blonding" factor relies on basicly two things! the grind and the dose.if you have a coarse grind and dose to the brim with a light tamper. the "blonding" would start at about 15 secs into the shot (Definitely not ideal). But when you make a fine grind with a half basket load that would give your coffee space to pull closer to the basket and relax the coffee out of the basket and into the cup. You'll see the coffee takes longer to start pouring but it will start with a really dark color and blend itself down to a full, round mouth feel espresso.
Try this next time. take three latte glasses and extract a shot. in the first glass pour the first 7 seconds into the glass, then the next 7 secs in the next glass, then the remaining extraction. Taste all three separately!!!
Knowing the stages of your extraction will help you for years in the long run.

Ricky Sutton said:

I agree about the volume issue. I pull my shots around 1.75 oz. between days 2-3 post roast, dosing at about 19 gr. in an 18 gr. synesso basket. Days 4-5 it's 1.5 oz. with a 20 gr. dose. Days 6-8 it's 1.25 oz. with a 21 gr. dose. These are all ROUGH estimates, but they're the guidelines that i start a shift with before i begin tweaking.
I strongly disagree about blonding. As i said before, i can pull a 40 second shot without seeing any blonding at all. That shot would not be ideal. It's not as simple as blonde espresso tastes bad and brown espresso tastes good. I've had plenty of experience with rich reddish-brown espresso tasting terrible if something is off. More rarely, sometimes the stream thinning out a little bit is exactly what a shot needs. Since the last few seconds of the shot seem to be where a lot of the more floral and acidic flavors reside, sometimes having those present in a capp for instance helps the espresso to have a more present personality in the drink.
For my current espressophilosophy, it's all about extraction. Too much time or surface area, bitter and astringent. Too little time or surface area, sour or underdeveloped. Time (dictated by grind size/dose) is significantly more important to me than color.


Damon Lurie said:

technically the volume of a shot doesnt matter, its actually the colour, once the running esspresso comming straight from the pf starts turning a light tawny colour you know the shot is ready, measurement arent flexible enough cause they dont account for the differences in grind, bean and age of the bean


Ricky Sutton said:

I seem to be a minority in disagreeing with the "espresso directly in the cup it will be consumed in" thing.

I always pull my shots in a demi. My reasons for this are so that i can keep a very strict eye on volume. Were i to put a 16 oz. paper cup under my portafilter, i couldn't see the splitters and therefore have no idea what the shot is doing. To be able to watch the espresso coming from the splitters and watch it pooling in my demi has greatly increased the consistency of my shots. Also espresso kind of stays in the layers it is produced in. The espresso at the bottom tastes super dense and bassy (chocolates, caramels, toffee etc.), the middle of the shot is the fruit and the top is citrus and floral. The crema is invariably the ashy and bittersweet qualities. Those profiles will change depending on, well everything. But the theory is there that shots don't mix themselves. Which is why i stir my espresso before drinking. Anyway, my point is that if i pull a shot directly into a capp cup and don't vigorously swirl the shot before pouring, those bitters are risen to the surface of the drink as i pour and the top of my capp doesn't taste so great. Then when i reach the bottom, it's super syrupy. If i always pull into demi's then pour the shot into the cup, it's pre-mixed. Sure i lose some crema. It's a sacrifice i currently make in exchange for my drinks tasting better (to me).

As far as syrup is concerned, i always put it in the cup. I've seen a noticeable difference in the texture of my milk when steaming syrup with it.

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Permalink Reply by Malt Barista on November 3, 2009 at 7:47am

I have only one customer whom insists on syrups! thing is I don't do flavored shit! ruins my Single estate beans!!!! anywho I started putting milkshake topping in it just so I don't look like an idiot standing in line buying coffee syrup!!! but this very morning me and my roaster where talking about origin flavors and this young lass walks in the door. I look at Peter(roaster) and say here we go. she orders her latte with caramel and insists that I make it strong...not the coffee. So I fill an 8 oz cup halfway with milkshake topping. extract a shot ontop of that. topped up with milk and stirred it. as I stirred it I could feel how thick it was!!!

Gave it to her. she took a sip and went...perfect! (I should not have said this but I did) "ah, Glad you like it,'cause I hope I wont be seeing you here again, you embarrass my other clientele."

Brady said:

Alex said a few things, but the part that made me chuckle was this one:

On another note - an American tourist once came in and asked what flavoured lattes we did, I told him "we do vanilla, caramal, and hazelnut - but if your game we have an excellent coffee flavour" he said he'd give it a go, not realising I had actually made a joke, I handed him a regular latte, and he said it was the best he'd ever had... Still thinking I had put some magical syrup in there.

Brilliant! I've tried that before too, but it only works if the delivery is perfect. Any touch of sarcasm and it goes wrong in a hurry.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on November 3, 2009 at 7:57am

Malt-
If if pains you so much to do syrups or milkshake toppings, why do you even have them at all? Why not get rid of them - especially since you don't want to serve those customer who like syrups anyway?

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on November 5, 2009 at 1:10am

You didn't seriously say this did you? That's horrible and an embarrASSment to baristas that don't need to act "too cool for school" in order to feel like they did their coffee justice.

Exactly as Jay said, if you don't want to offer syrups, don't offer them.

It's simple and it doesn't require you to insult customers and belittle them because they don't share the same dream of a perfect cup of coffee as you do. I'm not a syrup fan either, but I don't go out of my way to insult people who do like them. You just lost a potential educational opportunity. You could have opened this person's eyes to a less "masked" world of coffee, but instead you turned them off from a quality experience, and perhaps the only connection they'll ever make with a shop that is committed to promoting quality single origin coffees for what they are.

I assume this is your cafe? You make it sound as though it is. If it is, why on earth would you put forth that kind of attitude in front of your employees and customers? What kind of mindset are you trying to give to your employees? They see you act out like this and now they assume they can do the same. If you fire them for being rude to customers then you are just a hypocrite to them. I can only imagine that the other customers in earshot must have found this extremely rude and probably had the thought, "If he is willing to say this to a customer's FACE I wonder what he says about customers behind their backs... I wonder what he says about ME behind MY back." If this is not your cafe, I'm amazed that you haven't been fired yet if you find it EVER okay to act this way to a customer.

Why not wait until the customer leaves and turn to your roaster friend and say, "Oh gross! It killed me to make that drink like that. I could feel how thick it was on the spoon! Yuck!" You get all of your frustration out without making yourself look like a complete fool.

The only person in this situation that was embarrassed was you, whether you realize it or not.

-bry

Malt Barista said:

I have only one customer whom insists on syrups! thing is I don't do flavored shit! ruins my Single estate beans!!!! anywho I started putting milkshake topping in it just so I don't look like an idiot standing in line buying coffee syrup!!! but this very morning me and my roaster where talking about origin flavors and this young lass walks in the door. I look at Peter(roaster) and say here we go. she orders her latte with caramel and insists that I make it strong...not the coffee. So I fill an 8 oz cup halfway with milkshake topping. extract a shot ontop of that. topped up with milk and stirred it. as I stirred it I could feel how thick it was!!!

Gave it to her. she took a sip and went...perfect! (I should not have said this but I did) "ah, Glad you like it,'cause I hope I wont be seeing you here again, you embarrass my other clientele."

Brady said:

Alex said a few things, but the part that made me chuckle was this one:

On another note - an American tourist once came in and asked what flavoured lattes we did, I told him "we do vanilla, caramal, and hazelnut - but if your game we have an excellent coffee flavour" he said he'd give it a go, not realising I had actually made a joke, I handed him a regular latte, and he said it was the best he'd ever had... Still thinking I had put some magical syrup in there.

Brilliant! I've tried that before too, but it only works if the delivery is perfect. Any touch of sarcasm and it goes wrong in a hurry.

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