Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joseph Plaugher on November 3, 2009 at 9:02am

I wondered the same thing about the paper bags used by top roasters. But if you look inside, most of the time these paper bags are lined with a sealable airtight plastic lining. Some heat-seal the opening, some don't. From that same company you mentioned, you'd probably want these http://www.stockbagdepot.com/coffee-bags/index-iframes.php

If you're just roasting for yourself, I recommend a tin or glass jar/canister with a rubber gasket and a clamp to close it tight. This keep my coffee very fresh and I only had to buy it once. I have one that hold 1/2lb and one that holds about 1 lb.

I also know retail roasters who keep the beans they brew in-house in big glass barrels with rubber gaskets. They package the beans for sale in some kind of bag, but it's cheap and looks cool to keep the rest in big glass containers. Of course, you can't vacuum the oxygen out of a glass canister that isn't very full, so that is the downside.

Does that help at all?

Permalink Reply by Brian Williams on November 3, 2009 at 9:24am

I roast what is ordered or what I know will sell right away, so packaging for freshness isn't an issue. I use craft-paper because it biodegrades, as I assume the other roasters you're referring to do as well.

Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on November 3, 2009 at 9:52am

I'm a commercial roaster with a cafe in the Columbia Gorge. I believe that some roasters use paper because of several reasons. One is that the coffee purchased will be consumed before any serious damage is done by O2. Another is cost. Foil bags are not cheap and not land fill friendly. Although I use them because I need the shelf life they provide. We also sell out beans in glass apacary jars. Forgive my spelling. 10oz jars with a plastic pressure seal.
Only good for short term storage. We recycle these, 1.00 credit on cust. acct. or .75 cash back.
My coffee school instructor in VT. use's tin cans sealed with valves built into the tin lid. Very cool and recycle friendly.
just my 2 cents and then some,
Joseph

Permalink Reply by Pangi on November 3, 2009 at 10:07am

1st Joseph,

Thanks for that, I knew there was something I was missing. The sealed plastic insert/inner makes perfect sense. Any idea where I might find these? You're not referring to the standard Kraft paper bags are you? (http://www.stockbagdepot.com/green-products/tin-tie-pla-liner/)

Brian, this brings up a related issue. How long is it permissible for coffee to be exposed to oxygen. I know that the initial degassing of cO2 is going to function as a temporary barrier, and, that the length of this period will differ according to the bean. However, I feel as though by not doing the best one can to ensure complete protection one might run the risk of leaving the door just a little bit ajar and as a result jeopardize freshness......I am torn because for environmental reasons like you I love the idea of the Kraft bag, I just am not happy with the protection it offers. I know there are companies out there looking at ways to find a nice balance between protection and environmental footprint (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/larrys-beans-biodegradable-...) but it's all pretty new technology, and they require too large an order than I can handle.

2nd Joseph,
I love the can idea. That's what I use for my beans at home. This is probably the avenue that I'll end up going down as it offers great protection and so freshness, as well as reducing waste all at the same time encouraging the customer to take ownership of part of the process, both financially and otherwise. What is the name of your coffee school in VT?

Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on November 3, 2009 at 10:43am

Kraft paper is not a solution. I don't know of any Kraft product that does not pass o2.
I use the foil valve and a commercial sealer. True, I do have to purchase the foil bags in quantity. A bit spendy if you don't have the volume yet. As far as I know the foil bag is the only practical solution offering at least 3 months protection. There is much debate going on with how long the protection is for roasted bagged coffee whole bean so don't quote me here. I can say that I will from personal experience assure my customers 3 months in the foil bag that I seal up.
Cheers,
Joe


Pangi said:

1st Joseph,

Thanks for that, I knew there was something I was missing. The sealed plastic insert/inner makes perfect sense. Any idea where I might find these? You're not referring to the standard Kraft paper bags are you? (http://www.stockbagdepot.com/green-products/tin-tie-pla-liner/)

Brian, this brings up a related issue. How long is it permissible for coffee to be exposed to oxygen. I know that the initial degassing of cO2 is going to function as a temporary barrier, and, that the length of this period will differ according to the bean. However, I feel as though by not doing the best one can to ensure complete protection one might run the risk of leaving the door just a little bit ajar and as a result jeopardize freshness......I am torn because for environmental reasons like you I love the idea of the Kraft bag, I just am not happy with the protection it offers. I know there are companies out there looking at ways to find a nice balance between protection and environmental footprint (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/larrys-beans-biodegradable-...) but it's all pretty new technology, and they require too large an order than I can handle.

2nd Joseph,
I love the can idea. That's what I use for my beans at home. This is probably the avenue that I'll end up going down as it offers great protection and so freshness, as well as reducing waste all at the same time encouraging the customer to take ownership of part of the process, both financially and otherwise. What is the name of your coffee school in VT?

Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on November 3, 2009 at 10:44am

I meant to say foil valve bag.....

Joseph Robertson said:

Kraft paper is not a solution. I don't know of any Kraft product that does not pass o2.
I use the foil valve and a commercial sealer. True, I do have to purchase the foil bags in quantity. A bit spendy if you don't have the volume yet. As far as I know the foil bag is the only practical solution offering at least 3 months protection. There is much debate going on with how long the protection is for roasted bagged coffee whole bean so don't quote me here. I can say that I will from personal experience assure my customers 3 months in the foil bag that I seal up.
Cheers,
Joe


Pangi said:

1st Joseph,

Thanks for that, I knew there was something I was missing. The sealed plastic insert/inner makes perfect sense. Any idea where I might find these? You're not referring to the standard Kraft paper bags are you? (http://www.stockbagdepot.com/green-products/tin-tie-pla-liner/)

Brian, this brings up a related issue. How long is it permissible for coffee to be exposed to oxygen. I know that the initial degassing of cO2 is going to function as a temporary barrier, and, that the length of this period will differ according to the bean. However, I feel as though by not doing the best one can to ensure complete protection one might run the risk of leaving the door just a little bit ajar and as a result jeopardize freshness......I am torn because for environmental reasons like you I love the idea of the Kraft bag, I just am not happy with the protection it offers. I know there are companies out there looking at ways to find a nice balance between protection and environmental footprint (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/larrys-beans-biodegradable-...) but it's all pretty new technology, and they require too large an order than I can handle.

2nd Joseph,
I love the can idea. That's what I use for my beans at home. This is probably the avenue that I'll end up going down as it offers great protection and so freshness, as well as reducing waste all at the same time encouraging the customer to take ownership of part of the process, both financially and otherwise. What is the name of your coffee school in VT?

Permalink Reply by Pangi on November 3, 2009 at 11:02am

I use the foil bags too and have purchased in large quantities. They are the best for me at the mo, although as I said the tin cans are on the cards. They won't suit every situation though.

Coffee stored for three months? It'll be stale by then won't it?
Personally, I give it 14 days "shelf life" and then won't sell it after that, bean dependent of course.

Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on November 3, 2009 at 11:25am

Hard to go stale if o2 is not present. Much research is being done on this as to what is best, like , foil with valve, tin can with valve, the quality of the valve is the key here. I was taught in the school mentioned to bag or can with in 15 minutes to trap as much off gassing "cO2 as possible.
All the cupping we did at school did not give me the chance to taste stale. It would have been good to cup stale and have him, "Mane'" say now that is stale after 1 month, 2 weeks, or what ever time bagged in foil or can. My foil bags stay puffed up with co2 for three months or more indicating the valve is still working. And as of yet I can't taste a stale taste when opened at that date. Now you know why very few roasters put a roast date on there bags of coffee in the markets. You are starting to see it more here on the west coast of the US. I put the roast date on ours. It is a double edge sword because the GP, general public does not know what we know about freshness and longevity of coffee beans stored and sealed in a cO2 purged container. If you get a chance ask Mané Alves from
http://www.coffeelab.com/level.itml/icOid/5
these questions you have about freshness and storage and longevity tell him Joe and Linda from www.jolindas.com sent you. He is considered one of the top people in the industry today.

Pangi said:

I use the foil bags too and have purchased in large quantities. They are the best for me at the mo, although as I said the tin cans are on the cards. They won't suit every situation though.

Coffee stored for three months? It'll be stale by then won't it?
Personally, I give it 14 days "shelf life" and then won't sell it after that, bean dependent of course.

Permalink Reply by Brian Williams on November 4, 2009 at 5:16pm

I'm not too concerned with our coffee "keeping" because I dont push it out onto the shelves, per say. My volume doesnt require me to cheat the staling process by flushing with nitrogen and sealing with a degassing valve.... yet. I roast what I sell.. nothing more... and as my volume increases, I roast more often.

I also require commercial accounts to either discard or take home coffee they dont sell... this encourages sustainable ordering on their part (keeps their cogs in line) as well as quality control. At this time, I give them 14 days from roast, but I may move that up to 10 or 12 at some point.

I personally like the corn-based craft bags because they are heat-sealable, biodegradable and compostable (save the tin-tie). That's not to say they are always composted, but at least its something.

Pangi said:

Brian, this brings up a related issue. How long is it permissible for coffee to be exposed to oxygen. I know that the initial degassing of cO2 is going to function as a temporary barrier, and, that the length of this period will differ according to the bean. However, I feel as though by not doing the best one can to ensure complete protection one might run the risk of leaving the door just a little bit ajar and as a result jeopardize freshness......I am torn because for environmental reasons like you I love the idea of the Kraft bag, I just am not happy with the protection it offers. I know there are companies out there looking at ways to find a nice balance between protection and environmental footprint (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/larrys-beans-biodegradable-...) but it's all pretty new technology, and they require too large an order than I can handle

Permalink Reply by Pangi on November 11, 2009 at 1:19pm

Hey Joseph,

Good to see the roast date starting to catch on. I would never buy from a roaster that didn't.

I accept that a bag environment void of o2 is going to slow down the decomposition process but surely it can't halt it because there's a chemical process going on that will naturally and eventually occur regardless of the environment (decomposition).
I can't accept that bags completely void of O2 would slow the process so much so as to retain freshness for 3 months, but this is all abstract thought and conjecture for me. I am yet to test it out. I am no doubt also influenced by the popular belief that 15 days is about the max period for a bean before it becomes a been.

Joseph Robertson said:

Hard to go stale if o2 is not present. Much research is being done on this as to what is best, like , foil with valve, tin can with valve, the quality of the valve is the key here. I was taught in the school mentioned to bag or can with in 15 minutes to trap as much off gassing "cO2 as possible.
All the cupping we did at school did not give me the chance to taste stale. It would have been good to cup stale and have him, "Mane'" say now that is stale after 1 month, 2 weeks, or what ever time bagged in foil or can. My foil bags stay puffed up with co2 for three months or more indicating the valve is still working. And as of yet I can't taste a stale taste when opened at that date. Now you know why very few roasters put a roast date on there bags of coffee in the markets. You are starting to see it more here on the west coast of the US. I put the roast date on ours. It is a double edge sword because the GP, general public does not know what we know about freshness and longevity of coffee beans stored and sealed in a cO2 purged container. If you get a chance ask Mané Alves from
http://www.coffeelab.com/level.itml/icOid/5
these questions you have about freshness and storage and longevity tell him Joe and Linda from www.jolindas.com sent you. He is considered one of the top people in the industry today.

Pangi said:

I use the foil bags too and have purchased in large quantities. They are the best for me at the mo, although as I said the tin cans are on the cards. They won't suit every situation though.

Coffee stored for three months? It'll be stale by then won't it?
Personally, I give it 14 days "shelf life" and then won't sell it after that, bean dependent of course.

Permalink Reply by Pangi on November 11, 2009 at 2:12pm

Here's some interesting reading for those that haven't read this article:

http://www.blackbearcoffee.com/question_of_freshness.htm

Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on November 11, 2009 at 2:13pm

Pangi said:

Hey Joseph,

Good to see the roast date starting to catch on. I would never buy from a roaster that didn't.

I accept that a bag environment void of o2 is going to slow down the decomposition process but surely it can't halt it because there's a chemical process going on that will naturally and eventually occur regardless of the environment (decomposition).
I can't accept that bags completely void of O2 would slow the process so much so as to retain freshness for 3 months, but this is all abstract thought and conjecture for me. I am yet to test it out. I am no doubt also influenced by the popular belief that 15 days is about the max period for a bean before it becomes a been.

Joseph Robertson said:

Hard to go stale if o2 is not present. Much research is being done on this as to what is best, like , foil with valve, tin can with valve, the quality of the valve is the key here. I was taught in the school mentioned to bag or can with in 15 minutes to trap as much off gassing "cO2 as possible.
All the cupping we did at school did not give me the chance to taste stale. It would have been good to cup stale and have him, "Mane'" say now that is stale after 1 month, 2 weeks, or what ever time bagged in foil or can. My foil bags stay puffed up with co2 for three months or more indicating the valve is still working. And as of yet I can't taste a stale taste when opened at that date. Now you know why very few roasters put a roast date on there bags of coffee in the markets. You are starting to see it more here on the west coast of the US. I put the roast date on ours. It is a double edge sword because the GP, general public does not know what we know about freshness and longevity of coffee beans stored and sealed in a cO2 purged container. If you get a chance ask Mané Alves from
http://www.coffeelab.com/level.itml/icOid/5
these questions you have about freshness and storage and longevity tell him Joe and Linda from www.jolindas.com sent you. He is considered one of the top people in the industry today.

Pangi said:

I use the foil bags too and have purchased in large quantities. They are the best for me at the mo, although as I said the tin cans are on the cards. They won't suit every situation though.

Coffee stored for three months? It'll be stale by then won't it?
Personally, I give it 14 days "shelf life" and then won't sell it after that, bean dependent of course.

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