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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on January 25, 2010 at 4:58am

For clarification the comp' rules are referring to single shots, not 1oz or smaller double (or even triples) as being discussed.

Ashlind said:

Refer to you WBC and UCBC rules for this. meaning a very good, excellent, and extraordinary shot no matter the color, persistence, and balance will not be those scores unless 1oz. actually an average is at least 1oz. i think that says all.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on January 25, 2010 at 6:11am

That's not at all what I was suggesting. It's just something that should be taken into consideration. It's an indicator of something else.

How are these micro-ristrettos NOT under extracted at such low volumes? How much flavor (aroma) is left in the puck? (sniff it to get a clue)

Ricky Sutton said:

Generally, my system is 19 gr. dose with 1.5 oz in 24 seconds. That varies depending on the mood of the coffee of course, but that is my go to formula. If something tastes off, i start messing around with the variables. If i get 1/2 oz. in that 24 seconds, i pour it out. If i get 2 oz., i pour it out. Not because i think that those numbers are too extreme, i just know my coffee's personality and i know that those shots will not be good. I've had great 3/4 oz. ristretto's. I've had great 2 oz. normale's. But those don't work with my coffee.

If "final volume is related to, but is not a determining factor in dialing in the espresso" is just a phase, then what does everyone believe is the next step? Obviously we can't all go back to "2 oz. doubles, no matter what it tastes like".

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Permalink Reply by James Liu on January 25, 2010 at 6:22am

@Jay, I say want to. But I tend to defer to the owners's stylistic preferences on this one, and pull my shots to 1-1.25oz. And I want my baristas to just pull excellent shots, period, If the blend/weather/whatever changes and the best tasting shot runs 2-2.25 oz, so be it, they don't need my permission. Once it's your bar shift, it's your bar shift.

It's a lesson I learned from Chez Panisse. Once you take responsibility for a dish, you're responsible for the whole thing. I'm not going to stand at the pass making sure everything looks and tastes the same. But then again, it's easy for me to say that. All us baristas here went to the same coffee graduate school together.

Pull shots that you love. That's about my only rule.

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Permalink Reply by James Liu on January 25, 2010 at 6:25am

@Jason. It's perfectly possible to correctly extract such a shot. Concentration and extraction are related, but not 1:1.

And it's possible to over extract such a shot too. And then it's really foul.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on January 25, 2010 at 6:32am

I think we're talking in parallel, friend. I don't mean "sour". I mean there is significantly more desirable material left in the puck. It's also quite possible to "over-extract" a short shot while still leaving a significant amount of desirable material behind in the puck. Can we agree on that?

Water, while wonderful, is not an infinite solvent. There is a limit on how much it can carry. I'm not convinced that .5oz. of total volume is capable of containing even most of what the coffee has to offer. Even if that .5oz. doesn't taste "under-extracted" in the usual sense of the word.

James Liu said:

@Jason. It's perfectly possible to correctly extract such a shot. Concentration and extraction are related, but not 1:1.

And it's possible to over extract such a shot too. And then it's really foul.

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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on January 25, 2010 at 9:10am

ideally would you want the same extraction level as drip coffee? like 19-21% of the coffee solid dissolved in the water?

i run 19-20g doubles in those ridgeless synesso baskets, and generally aim for 60ml total (30ml per shot) without blonding. degassing will certainly affect volume, so fresh doubles have to be like 90ml cause they'll drop down to 60ml right quick.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Marrocco on January 25, 2010 at 2:55pm

All,

i think that this is a fantastic thread. What a great question to entertain. I to struggle with the volume issue. Obviously, it is a taste experience that we are after here. Yet, there is a science to all of this coffee stuff.

@Jason, you are right on. Dr. Illy has a great book about all of this that we all should ponder. This is one of those places where science and art intersect. Asthetics of taste and knowledge of how things work.

Yeah,... so I really don't have anything constructive to add. Sorry. Just happy to see this thread. I wish I had more data to enter. I will say, I used to pull super ristretto shots and am now pulling much higher volume. I'll think more on this and maybe post later. Keep debating!!

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Permalink Reply by James Liu on January 25, 2010 at 6:43pm

@Jason. Yes. I think we're in agreement. We are talking in parallel.

But there is culinary precedent for "throwing out" perfectly good product to reach a certain kind of result. Consomme, classically, involves a great deal of waste but when it's right is just culinary gold. I'm not saying that a .5oz micro ristretto is a great idea, but even if it leaves usable coffee in the puck, it's not a reason to dismiss it. Even in my world, that kind of pour seems a bit wonky.

The obvious thing to do here is to run an experiment. I think the question we want to ask is "do these ultra-ristretto shots do the coffee justice, and under what circumstances?" and so we'll want to take the same coffee, and extract it at a whole slew of grind/dose/dwell-time/volume parameters, and then record everything we possibly can about the shots. Say we choose 3 volumes(call them normale, ristretto, ultra), all at the same dwell time. Then we have to test a variety of grind/dose combinations for each of n/r/u...

Then we'll end up with some seriously tired/over-caffeinated baristas. But then we'll start getting to an answer.

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