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Permalink Reply by Phil Proteau on February 18, 2010 at 5:14am

"The idea of starting the shot time from when flow begins is useless to ludicrous."


It is neither, on the contrary, it is extremely useful to keep tract of the time between pump activation and the visibility of the first drop. The length of this time, however, will be in relation to the style of shot you pull, the flavor you are looking for, the type of machine you use.

You can certainly make the point that one shot may be drinkable with a 4 second "pre-visible" time, and another can be drinkable with a 12 second "pre-visable" time. But a skilled Barista who exhibits great consistency will always have near identical "pre-visable" intervals. I am not saying that this interval needs to be same for everyone, but it should be the same for everyone in one shop.

I strongly believe that there is an advantage to knowing this piece of information. All by itself, it is not a complete picture, and in relation to other styles of shots, or with other espresso blends or SOs it will change. Everyone is free to start counting whenever they feel like, but you will be missing out on something if you wait till you see coffee.

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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on February 18, 2010 at 7:20am

I didn't say not to know the time before the shot starts to floww, agree 100% needs to be tract. I was saying not to NOT count the time before flow as part of the shot time because that time before flow begins can be extremely longer than any realistic shot should yield.

Phil Proteau said:

"The idea of starting the shot time from when flow begins is useless to ludicrous."


It is neither, on the contrary, it is extremely useful to keep tract of the time between pump activation and the visibility of the first drop. The length of this time, however, will be in relation to the style of shot you pull, the flavor you are looking for, the type of machine you use.

You can certainly make the point that one shot may be drinkable with a 4 second "pre-visible" time, and another can be drinkable with a 12 second "pre-visable" time. But a skilled Barista who exhibits great consistency will always have near identical "pre-visable" intervals. I am not saying that this interval needs to be same for everyone, but it should be the same for everyone in one shop.

I strongly believe that there is an advantage to knowing this piece of information. All by itself, it is not a complete picture, and in relation to other styles of shots, or with other espresso blends or SOs it will change. Everyone is free to start counting whenever they feel like, but you will be missing out on something if you wait till you see coffee.

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Permalink Reply by Christopher Zimmerman on February 18, 2010 at 12:19pm

When the button on the machine is pushed...

It is very important to know your (as it was called) "pre-visable" time along with your "visible" time of extraction... You can pull the same volume "visable" shot with a different "pre-visable" time and you will get different results... This can be seen when playing around with tamp pressure... I have pulled shots tamping my normal 36lbs pounds and then tamping lighter but keeping the same dose and grind... The difference in the shots is the headspace in the portafilter (space between the surface of the grounds and the dispersion screen)... the harder tamp (depending on how different your 2 tamp pressures are) will have a noticeably longer "pre-visable" time... and then if you start the timer when the visible shot starts and pull them 25 seconds you will get the same volume in your shots since you used the same grind and dose... however, the shots will taste different since the harder tamp has been in contact with water longer it will have a longer extraction... and that goes to pretty much what everyone has said... start the timer when the button is pushed since that is when extraction starts... just remember we can talk time and other factors all day... but it comes down to what tastes good and being completely consistent in what you do... and not timing that first part of the shot can cause inconsistency...
Hope this helps!
Cheers

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Permalink Reply by Chris on February 18, 2010 at 2:44pm

Brady said:

Chris, your first post read like you stopped timing when it blonded, regardless of when you stopped your extraction. This isn't a discussion about when to stop your extraction, it is about when to start timing.

When I stop the shot is the same time it starts to blonde, at least in my case. That blonding is indicative of the shot starting to extract undesirables solubles (try the experiment I suggested and taste for yourself) and will ruin the shot. At least for me. If the blonding time doesn't co-incide with a decent extraction time, say, from 25 to 30 seconds, I adjust the grind, dose, or both, until it does. Finding an ounce and a half to two ounces of extraction before blonding is why you want to time your shots.
If you pull a shot that starts to blonde at twenty seconds, it will taste much better (again, this is my opinion, but run a couple and taste them for yourself) than the same technique run another five or ten seconds into the blonding.
Blonding indicates when the extraction is done. Getting the extraction to run 25-30 seconds before the blonding starts is the key.

OTOH, I'm pretty fond of 45-55 second chocolate bomb ristretti once in a while. ; >

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Permalink Reply by Marmeláda on February 18, 2010 at 4:06pm

Immediately as I press the button.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Donohoe on February 19, 2010 at 11:36am

thanks everyone!! this has been really helpful!

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