Going from Triple basket Naked to Double basket Spouted. Help?
Just looking for suggestions.
I'm having a bit of difficulty with my espresso extractions at the moment.
Here's the deal, at the shop we pull on triple basket naked portifilters.
At the moment I'm training for GLRBC and pulling espresso on double baskets with spouts.
I have no issue pulling triples with naked. But when I go to the double spouted I'm having a world of difference in the taste of my espresso.
My dose has remained the same on both. I'm pulling 1.75 oz for each extraction.
The only variable I'm changing is the grind. Seems the shape and the bottom surface area change the time inwhich my espresso pulls.
Whats happening is my espresso is getting washed out in flavor. The prominent fruit note is no longer prominent. It kind of loses any prominent flavors and the body is just not there(I expected to lose some body when going to spouted portifilters)
So what do you guys think? and I not aware of a certain variable? The coffee I'm using has come into question as well but I strongly feel this is a User Error (me).
Some suggestions and advice would be nice. A tad frustrated at this point.
Thanks guys.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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Timing the same? If the dose is the same... guessing in the neighborhood of 19 grams, then why smash 19 grams into a double basket? You're probably pushing the coffee bed against the screen. I just wanted to get conversation started on this, more than anything... obviously it could be about 1,000 different things, but we'll start with these questions and narrow from there.
-bry
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Matthew, I'm a little confused by some of the things you've said. Can you please clarify how many total grams you use, seconds you pull, and total ounces of resulting espresso in each case?
I think your biggest culprit is due to basket change, not bottomless vs spouted.
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Agreed, these were some of the details I was hoping for in a reply as well...
-bry
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Gasaway on
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I'm dosing around 18.5 grams. I have checked it a number of times with a gram scale.
I would say do to expansion of the puck that it does hit the screen. Is this going to dramatically alter things?
Timing is the same. I've been trying to keep it consistent that is (not change so many variables...)
It's a real inconsistent thing. More so lately I can tell the taste is lacking but I can not seem to figure out what I'm doing differently....
Do you think going to the double basket I should be changing the dose?
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Permalink Reply by Chris on
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Matthew Gasaway said:I'm dosing around 18.5 grams. I have checked it a number of times with a gram scale.
Do you think going to the double basket I should be changing the dose?
Uhm, yeah?
If you want to pull a double that looks and tastes like your triples, you have to change almost everything in the basket to get the same results. I know, it sounds like it shouldn't be that way, but think of it like this. If you use the same driving directions to get to work from your girlfriend's house as you do from your house, you're not going to end up in the same place every day, unless you live with your girlfriend.
First off, if you're pulling 18.5g in your triple for a good result, you're going to want to try something like 14g in your double, at most. And to get a good extraction time that resembles what you have in your triple, you're going to have to grind finer. Pull the double in the naked so you can see what the pull looks like (it's great to see if you're getting some channeling from overdosing and breaking the puck, or ring-around-the-basket from lack of headroom, etc. Once you get a pull that starts to look like the triple, and taste like the triple, (but, two-thirds the volume, yeah?) go ahead and start pulling them in the spouted. Rumour has it that a spouted shot should taste like a naked shot that has been stirred. YMMV.
But the important thing back there was when Brady asked, "Can you please clarify how many total grams you use, seconds you pull, and total ounces of resulting espresso in each case?"
Answer all of those questions; dose, timing, and resulting volume of each basket adn there will be a whole lot more for us to work with.
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Sorry for not clarifying.
What I have been doing thus far is this...
Same dose(18.5 grams), same extraction time(27 seconds), and the same volume(1.75oz). Just changing from the triple to the double basket. I guess I was thinking that the only variable I needed to change was the grind to get the same extraction time.
I was thinking a low dose in a triple basket was an acceptable dose for a double basket.
I feel a little silly because I've been pulling on triple baskets for such a long time that I can't seem to wrap my mind around a good double basket extraction.
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Chris' advice is spot on, and what I would have said if I was paying closer attention to the thread. You definitely need to adjust things across the board switching from basket to basket.
Also, 18(ish) in a double is a hellofalot. I'm guessing you're getting "donut" effect, but we won't know for sure until that double goes into the naked PF. Headroom does play a role in extraction, you need to account for that.
I think you'll be surprised how much better some doubles can taste over triples. YMMV
-bry
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I'm kind of excited to jump back in the ring tomorrow morning.
As I was cleaning up today from practice, the idea of popping a double on the naked occurred to me.
Of course at that point I was a little frustrated with previous results and just wanted to call it a night.
I'm glad that I know I need to make adjustments across the board. Even more glad to know the results are within grasp.
My understanding of the double basket is lacking, I'll admit. If I was never planning on competing then I probably would have stayed ignorant.
Thank you gentlemen. Your words give me hope once again.
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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on
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Also, all double baskets are not created equal. Which is to say they are not all shaped the same or have the same hole patterns and hence their different geometries will pull differently. Dawned on me I don't know if you can use a double basket of your choice during competition. I suspect you must use the one provided with the competition machine. Therefore I'd find out for sure and be sure and practice with the same double basket that will be used during the competition.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on
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miKe,
Thanks for adding this 2 cent piece. Quality lies in the details and competition is another planet all together.
JoeR
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Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Johnson on
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what's probably happening is electron transfer. The added contact with metal is throwing off the flavor profile. You would need to adjust the blend in order to work around the problem, if you can't do that the I would try another coffee altogether.
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Seriously? Since a double basket has less surface area than a triple basket I'd expect the neutrons cacading off the protons to have a greater effect than errant electrons.
Justin Johnson said:what's probably happening is electron transfer. The added contact with metal is throwing off the flavor profile. You would need to adjust the blend in order to work around the problem, if you can't do that the I would try another coffee altogether.
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