The Basics - New Shop, New or Used Equipment?
Hi All, New to this group. Already learned alot. Question of the day: New or used espresso equipment? The coffee roaster/supplier I'd like to deal with wants me to buy my equipment from them, but that means a rather large down payment, then payments for 12 - 18 months on new equipment. I'd rather buy higher-end used equipment up front, but I'm concerned about service and training, etc. I am new to the entire coffee business. Thoughts please ...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Eric Hammond on
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OK, Here it is. New Equipment: There are things you need to buy new. The things that if they break, and the part takes a few days to get here, your dead in the water. Espresso Machines, for example. A rebuilt one may do the job. BTW: Astoria Grinders are quite good. I thin they are rebadged Mahlkonig. Some things cost more now but will pay off later. Other things can be bought used. Things that don't exactly break very easily. Things like shop grinders. I worked at a shop that had a grinder built in the 40's. They rewired it and bought new burrs. I have a mahlkonig that I bought off Ebay. If your a coffee shop, don't skimp on those things that you use to make coffee. Skimp on ice makers, fridges and cups and saucers.
There are some very scary things. Why would a Capp need a Spatula? If they are actually selling you one, they have issues. A great plan is nothing if you don't know how to make coffee. Coffee shops don't make tons of money. They do a good job of surviving. But unless your doing something else, don't expect to go to the Mercedes dealership anytime soon.
My advice. SLOW DOWN. You may have to let this one go. There will be other chances to open a shop. If not, buy a good espresso machine, decent grinders, some decent brewers. Ask other shop owners for advice. Many of them (likely) sell equipment, and they may be able to make you a better deal. Not that there is anything wrong with that equipment. I retail may of those things. Look online. And hire someone who is an expert in coffee.
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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on
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Julie,
You may be better off not opening now and learning more about not just coffee, but what you want your business to provide you too. Open 6 days a week 14 hours a day hours PLUS pre-open and close makes that more like roughly 16 hour days, just you. Are you opening a coffee house or a sweat shop with you as the number one slave?
And hire a few helpers. How you gonna pay them? Any cushion $ wise if business doesn't immediately take off bringing in enough to pay rent, utilities, supplies, payroll etc.?
Why do you want a coffee shop if you don't know coffee? Are you immediately hiring someone who does know coffee? If you're even considering going with that roaster's packaged IMO it just illustrates how little you know about the coffee industry. A brand new Bunn G2 runs about $700, you could buy two brand new Mazzer Super Jolly's for the price they want for one Rossi that's not as good. Totally agree with others $2k boon-doogle on the twin airpot brewer.
Maybe you'd be better off opening more of a community center, that also happens to serve coffee. Forget about espresso until you learn or can afford to hire someone who does. Maybe save the big expense of espresso equipment and spend it on some training. I'd wager many on this forum could produce better espresso with a $1k entry level home setup than you'll be able to produce, I know I could. I see it all the time over and over. I like coffee, I think I'll open a coffee shop! Which sadly is one reason there's always so much quality used equipment for sale. All my equipment purchased used. 8 Mazzer Majors and Super Jollys that if purchased new would have run close to $8k, yet I paid less than $300 for every one of them. 4gr PID'd Linea if new $14k, all in re-built from the frame up $4,500k. 3grp PID'd Linea even less. $3k deli case a whopping $300. Double dour true cooler $2800, nope $200. $1300 under counter fridge $350 and on and on. Sure it takes time to find deals, and you have to know what you're looking for. Took me almost a year to score that ridiculous deal of $300 used for what would have been new $3,000 deli case. And STILL looking for close to as good a deal for my other location!
You have at least one thing right, importance of customer service. Maybe it'll be enough without knowing your product. But then again, sounds like coffee may not really be your product but rather a customer service oriented community meeting place. That also serves coffee. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't get sucked into trying to be what you're not by a supplier. Ask yourself, would great customer service serving swill be ok with you? For all too many it is, often minus the great customer service.
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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@Eric.... Noooo. My guess is they aren't throwing in a K30, I'm betting it's a little more like this one:
http://www.yacoffeegrinders.com/grinders.asp# (halfway down the page).
My biggest concern is that you are going with the roaster you are going with not because of their coffee, but because of their ability to give you equipment. People don't come back because of a new Bunn on the counter, they come back because of what went through that Bunn. Eric put it right, if they are even considering offering a "cappuccino spatula" then it slaps me in the face that they have no clue what quality coffee is or should be.
If you wouldn't mind, what are some of the shops that have inspired you to embark on this journey?
-bry
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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on
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Julie Stewart said:I have been all over e-bay and everywhere else researching coffee equipment. Unfortunately, the shops around here got their equipment from their roasters new, so that's what they are promoting. Thus the post about this topic. I know great equipment is important, but it sounds like it's less important than who and how it's being used. I'll keep you posted.
jas
if you're willing to pay $1400 for an "astoria" rebadged espresso grinder, you have NOT spent months researching equipment.
and great equipment is very important - our point is you can get far better equipment than what that roaster is offering for a lot less than $10,000. and you certainly don't have fridges or furniture factored into that package.
i mean - http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bfs/1662984694.html that's a freaking 4 group linea for $1500! why would you buy an astoria when you could have that for three grand less?
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Permalink Reply by Julie Stewart on
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Ok Everyone,...I've admitted I'm ignorant, so cut me a break. I knew the equipment was over-priced which is why I was looking for feedback. I have done alot of research (or maybe it was just plain searching), but without a frame of reference, it's difficult to look at craigslist or any site and determine a good deal. You guys can do that, because you are coffee professionals, very good at what you do and have worked with different types of equipment. And yes, I understand I'm doing this backward. But I am doing it.
Based on your advise, I'm not going with the roaster in question for equipment. I've made contact with an equipment serviceman referred by another shop. I'm "job shadowing" at a coffee shop tomorrow and at another one next week. This is the only way I can think of to get some hands-on experience, while still working my present career.
Thanks for ALL the feedback.
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Permalink Reply by Terri Voltz on
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Julie,
Welcome to BX!
My advice would be to first make certain you have found a good knowledgeable roaster. If you find a roaster you can trust, they can offer you a great deal of help. You need to be able to serve good coffee, so make certain the roaster has a good reputation for their beans. Then, take a class or two. Many roasters offer classes and may comp you a class if you chose to purchase from them. There is so much informaiton on the internet. Read (many books and articles are out there) and watch youtube videos. There are many talented baristas out there that have shared their talent via video. You just need to learn which ones are truly talented. It would be great if you plan to hire help so you can look for someone with a great deal of experience. An experienced staff will help offset your lack of experience; preferably someone who knows the equipment and is an awesome barista.
I purchased my store with the 2 year old used equipment already in place. I have had no major problems, but I did go ahead and have maintenance performed on all of the equipment and all new water filters installed.
If you buy used equipment, make sure you know where it has been used. Poor water quality and poor maintenance can adversely affect espresso machines and pretty much make them useless. If your main focus will be espresso, I recommend starting with a new machine, if you are unsure about the used machine. Astoria makes a good machine; however, I am not too familiar with the different models. I have a Gloria.
Good luck! I was new to the business in July 09 so I am not a total expert, but I have learned a great deal. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
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My question still stands, but I think I buried it in my 'wiser than thou' scare tactics :) I'm really not an a-hole (not always at least, lol). I just see a lot of people who "really like coffee" think that because they "really like coffee" they should open a coffee shop. I really like food, but I have no intention of owning a restaurant. I really like beer, but no brewery in sight. Would you open a mechanic shop without knowing how to work on engines? Learn how to flush a transmission as you go? Replace a head gasket on the job? Feel it out? Or would you dive into research, train yourself... work under someone for years... which sounds like a better approach? If karate caught my eye and I shadowed a sensei for two weeks it wouldn't mean I was trained up and ready to open a dojo.
Eh... maybe I am just an a-hole :)
I hope that if you do move forward that yousucceed, mainly because I think you'll look back on this post and understand where we are coming from. La Marzocco is the number one name in espresso machines (of course there are opinions, but I don't think anyone would be able to totally write them off). I'll bet that Lineas are the most common machines on the market. If you hadn't ever heard of a La Marzocco Linea, there really isn't any chance you have done even the slightest amount of research into machines. It's like saying you want to start making cars, but having never heard of Chevrolet. What espresso machine manufactures are you aware of? Which manufacturers stand out to you? What machines have you compared? You *have* made pros/cons lists about machines right? What made you decide to seek one out over another?
What about grinders? You know they are more important than the machine, right? No joking, a top end grinder is more important than a top end machine. What's the most common grinder manufacturer out there? Mazzer. What are their models? Mini, Super Jolly, Major, Robur. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Which one best fits your business model and projected volume? What is your projected volume? What are you attempting to accomplish with the shop?
What about roasters? How many have you sampled? Who had the best Sumatran? Ethiopian? Kenyan? Costa Rican? What made it the best? What made one roaster a better match to your business than another?
I'm going off on crazy tangents again, and probably just coming off like a jerk more than someone that is really trying to help, because I am legitimately trying to help, it's just that it's not going to seem like help. The question, jeez... You mention in your profile- yes I did actually try to get a reference of where you are coming from... not just attack, attack, attack :), that you love visiting coffee shops. I'd love to know who inspired you to open up. Who are you familiar with in the industry? What shop did you go into that turned the gears in your head and made you say, "This is what I'm going to do... I am GOING to do this... I HAVE to create something like this."
I know what did it for me (and I've been doing this for 7 years and STILL have absolutely NO desire to open my own shop)... it was walking into Intelligentsia's Broadway location in Chicago 6 years ago and seeing latte art for the first time. It blew my freaking mind. I had never seen anything like that. In my brain a great barista was someone who knew how to combine 9 different Torani flavors juuuuust so to please the sugar seeking palate of the person on the other side of the counter. What was this feather thing? Leaf thing? Whatever... How did he do that? Oh... (as another one is being made) he just... he just POURS it! As I move toward the end of the line (about 12 people in line) I move past the register and hear the barista say, "Nope, just vanilla..." WHAT! They only have vanilla! How in the hell did this shop ever get voted one of the top ten shops in America if they only have vanilla! I was really quite dazed. It was really confusing, I was extremely uncomfortable and unaware.
As I approached the register, all I could mutter out was, "Honestly... I have no idea what I would like... something good?"
"You trust me?"
"I think...?" I pay a little over $3 for some tiny little beverage with heart on it. (It was a capp) I tip it back and it's just... ... ... ... calming.
"What's in this?"
"Espresso and milk."
"No like... what else?"
*slight grin* "Espresso and milk and love."
"No flavors?"
"Kinda crazy, huh..."
"It's just... I didn't know you could make coffee taste like this... I've been a barista for a year and half... but... wow."
Bing! I was off. That was it. I was sunk. It was *THAT* moment that changed my life. I have no idea who the barista was... I'm not even sure I would know him if I saw him again. But he changed my life.
I went home, 10:30 at night I unlock the front door of the cafe that closed 3 1/2 hours prior. I walk in with six gallons of whole milk (we didn't even carry whole milk) and go to town. I get no where. Four hears later I'm finally pouring something I think is decent. A year and half after that I move across the country for a job as a barista.
I started out thinking that a "Love Potion 90, Blonde" was the pinnacle of what made me a great barista.
I'm not saying you need to pour nothing but traditional drinks to be a great barista. I'm also not trying to say that you need to have that one moment where all of the stars align, angels sing and you sign your life away to coffee. What I am trying to say is that I feel like you are getting into something that could end up eating a giant hole in your wallet just because it looks like something fun to try to tackle. It's like opening a winery without going to try different wineries in the area. Without knowing volumes about grapes. Knowing soil, climate, fermentation... Just liking it isn't enough.
Step back... take a second. You said, "without a frame of reference." Isn't that a terrifying thing to realize you don't have if you are about to open a business? Starting a cafe without a frame of reference? I'm not saying you shouldn't open a shop, I'm just saying you aren't ready yet. I have no doubt that you are determined, but determination doesn't mean everything. Don't do it to prove you can, do it to prove you can do it better than anyone else and have a ready answer for why it's better than anyone else. I'd suggest that answer be served in a ceramic cup :)
-bry
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Permalink Reply by teresa pilarz on
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Bry, I think you've made your point and I really enjoyed reading your last post. Although I've agreed w/ most of what you've said prior, I was kinda beginning to think you were being a bit harsh. But, after reading this last one, I can just feel that passion for coffee that's driving you, as well as your concern that Julie might dive in and make a huge mistake.
I can totally relate to your story about your turning point in coffee because I'd say my experience was similar. It was also at one of the Intelli's in Chicago, and I was completely blown away. Once you experience that level of sophistication with something, it gains a whole new depth, and in the case of coffee you realize just how much there is to learn out there. It also brings about a whole new level of respect for the product, and I think that's another reason why it may come across like everyone's attacking you Julie.
What it comes down to is that we've all seen so many shops come and go because they did exactly what you described... jump in because it looks fun, they open up and the coffee sucks and/or they don't know how to run the business, and in a couple years they're gone. And when that happens, it does nothing to elevate coffee as a specialty beverage. I think that's why people here, many of whom have dedicated years and years to this craft, may come across somewhat defensive.
In any case, whatever you choose, I wish you luck. It's tough out there and you're not going to get rich in coffee; it's more a labor of love. If you go ahead, the people here are an amazing resource!
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teresa said:Once you experience that level of sophistication with something, it gains a whole new depth, and in the case of coffee you realize just how much there is to learn out there. It also brings about a whole new level of respect for the product
oh how i wish that were true. i've seen people watch the best of the best do their thing and then turn around and decide to pre-grind the decaf espresso, or leave coffee in the airpots for hours on end. if people don't have a desire to be good at something, no amount of inspiration will instill it in them.
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I know you're getting sick of Julie and her story, but I like the feedback and I have thick skin. Though I don't know any of you, I want you to understand why this is so important. I'm the director of a downtown revitalization program. I won't bore you with the details, but we've made great progress the last few years. New business growth, buildings being fixed up, new events, young people interested in what's going on, etc. You can guess what always came up as a gaping hole in our downtown. No coffee shop, no place to meet casually, no place to get really great coffee, no place with atmosphere.
So you're right. Initially, it's not about the perfect coffee experience. It's about the experience the coffee can create with people. Bryan asked about a particular coffee experience that inspired me. There isn't one. What I have had is encounters with so many people who are seeking that place....particularly my young people who've never had the coffee shop experience, but they're so excited. Jared, I understand your disdain for my approach, but I will learn and will become a professional in your world (it's ok for you to cry ;-). I don't think this diminishes your craft; just the opposite.
But I digress; I must get back to my misguided attempt at a colossal career change. Have a great night everyone....Julie
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And you CAN do exactly what you say you want to do and do it with a quality experience focus, creating a downtown meeting and socializing focal, by not starting offering espresso initially. You're admittedly clueless and can't afford to hire someone experiences. Espresso is a science and art form that takes substantial time and practice to get even decent results, let alone really excel at it. On the other hand learning how to do various other brew methods like an excellent press pot or excellent pour over CAN be taught via this forum. In great specific detail.
Or figure out how to get at least a week solid hands on solid espresso training to get a decent foundation in the basics. Or serve swill, which will NOT serve your purpose of introducing a quality coffee shop experience in your downtown. Crappy coffee creates a crappy experience regardless the setting. Is that the experience you want your youth to learn about, crappy coffee in a nice setting?
Julie Stewart said:I know you're getting sick of Julie and her story, but I like the feedback and I have thick skin. Though I don't know any of you, I want you to understand why this is so important. I'm the director of a downtown revitalization program. I won't bore you with the details, but we've made great progress the last few years. New business growth, buildings being fixed up, new events, young people interested in what's going on, etc. You can guess what always came up as a gaping hole in our downtown. No coffee shop, no place to meet casually, no place to get really great coffee, no place with atmosphere.
So you're right. Initially, it's not about the perfect coffee experience. It's about the experience the coffee can create with people. Bryan asked about a particular coffee experience that inspired me. There isn't one. What I have had is encounters with so many people who are seeking that place....particularly my young people who've never had the coffee shop experience, but they're so excited. Jared, I understand your disdain for my approach, but I will learn and will become a professional in your world (it's ok for you to cry ;-). I don't think this diminishes your craft; just the opposite.
But I digress; I must get back to my misguided attempt at a colossal career change. Have a great night everyone....Julie
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I have learned alot. The striving for excellence is what it should be about, I agree, but no one starts as an expert. You all had to start somewhere.
Here's what I won't do:
1) Be pressured into a bad equipment purchase
2) Leave coffee in airpots for hours
3) Pre-grind anything
4) Buy bad equipment, just because it's inexpensive
5) Take the coffee for granted
What I will do:
1) Training, training and more training
2) Use BE to get specific advice on specific topics
3) Find the best equipment, based on your suggestions
4) Take all the advice you've given - and I really have
Thank you and have a great day. It's beautiful in central PA today.
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