Extracting a cup of coffee from an espresso machine?
A customer wants to use his espresso machine to pull (make) a 12oz coffee
The customer does not want to make americano's
They want to run the shot till they get a cup (12oz) of coffee.
They have travelled to Europe and tell me this is how everybody is doing it.
My questions
Is this true?
how would this method affect the espresso machine? pumps etc?
If this is true what type of grind would they be using?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on
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i read in the duct tape marketing book that you could probably do without 20% of your customer base, because it's just not a good fit. that guy probably falls in the 20%, let him walk.
also, i'm not positive running 12 oz. at once through a head would do damage to the pump, but i wouldn't risk it.
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Permalink Reply by Nathan Mikkelson on
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this is interesting...I've heard of the people doing coffee tasting using the espresso machine, but 12oz is a lot of water to pump out of an espresso machine...and just too much coffee for one sitting if you ask me.
I've tried the coffee tasting version though. Just dose the portifilter like you would for a coffee tasting with the same grind as well, then 6oz from the espresso machine. Its kinda diff. I'm not sure i feel okay pulling like that. I cant remember where i heard of people doing this...Slayer, maybe?
I don't know, pulling a shot for 12oz just sounds supper sick. I shutter at the thought of the immense over extraction
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Permalink Reply by Derryl Reid on
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I will try to talk them into a water tower and SO Americano's
What I get a lot is; "in Europe they do it so much better" I haven't travelled there so I don't really know. The opposite is what I get from reading forums etc.
One place where I deliver coffee to, A very sophisticated woman said to me in an attractive European accent, "I do not drink this type of coffee". A little concerned I ask a few question to find out where she is from they only drink Necafe??
Jared Rutledge said:i read in the duct tape marketing book that you could probably do without 20% of your customer base, because it's just not a good fit. that guy probably falls in the 20%, let him walk.
also, i'm not positive running 12 oz. at once through a head would do damage to the pump, but i wouldn't risk it.
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Permalink Reply by Phoebe Aceto on
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In Europe there is also a lot of NesCafe ...not all coffee in Europe is good. It is not good for the pump to run at that pressure for over 30 seconds. I have had customers request this and I will pull a longer shot (coarsen the grind first) then add a little water.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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I believe this is called a cafe crema. I've not tried making it, but as I understand it you'd need to adjust the grind much coarser to get your desired volume in the 20-30 second window we're accustomed to. Could be tricky, as it needs to be an even extraction with no channeling, which I struggle to achieve with a very coarse grind setting.
Limited research suggests that 12oz may not be advisable with a standard double basket, they may be limited to a smaller cup, 6-8 oz, which is probably more authentically "European" anyway. There's more info on that out there... have them investigate cafe crema.
I tend to be suspicious of anybody that says something like "that's the way they do it in Europe". Pretty big place, with lots and lots of variation in preparation technique. Cafe crema may be Swiss?
I doubt you'd see an issue with your pump after all you are not doing anything severe with it. If you want to try this and have serious concerns, contact your manufacturer. Remember, we are still talking about a 30 second or less extraction time at normal pressures.
What you might see is a serious crash in brew water temp if you have a hX machine, maybe less if a dual-boiler machine. Would perhaps affect brew quality.
Good luck.
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Permalink Reply by Shadow on
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If the machine has a vibe pump it could do damage, but that is really dependent on the time it is ON. If a very coarse grind is used and 12 oz. is achieved rather quickly then I'm sure it'd be fine.
Brady, so you don't think any HX is capable of maintaining decent temperatures after 12 oz. is extracted?
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Permalink Reply by Fraser Jamieson on
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Yes, it's a cafe crema, and yes, I do about four of them a day. My choice would be to reset the grind but I simply don't have time for that. Personally, I think it's gross, but I've tried offering these guys Americanos and they tell me they like the cafe crema better.
It may be bad for the pump, I don't know, but the pump only ever shuts off between drinks for a few seconds anyway. I do believe that the water temperature drops though I've honestly never tested it.
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Shadow said:If the machine has a vibe pump it could do damage, but that is really dependent on the time it is ON. If a very coarse grind is used and 12 oz. is achieved rather quickly then I'm sure it'd be fine.
Brady, so you don't think any HX is capable of maintaining decent temperatures after 12 oz. is extracted?
Well, I suspect that it varies depending on the size of the heat exchanger and mass of the grouphead. Note I said "what you might see"... implying that it would be worth looking into. I haven't done extensive work in this area, as I usually don't pull that much water. I know that "they" caution against dispensing too much water when you do your pre-shot flush to avoid dropping your brew water temp.
Strangely, I'm actually getting ready to do a little work in this area. I finally ordered my Fluke this afternoon, and plotting brew water temp on our machine is first priority. Scace will follow shortly... will just make do until then.
My suspicion is that pulling that much water that quickly will drop the temp significantly. Again, this is just my speculation. If you think of the size of the heat exchanger, which looks about like a PBR tallboy in Rancilio and Nuova Simonelli, smaller in Astoria (if memory serves me). That 12oz pull is around half the exchanger volume. This means you change out half the water in 30ish seconds, replacing it with cold line water. Next time I'm on bar I'll check it out... it should be a pretty straightforward experiment.
Fraser, how do you do it if no grind adjustment? Just pull it longer?
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Permalink Reply by Karl on
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Hi, I happen to be in Europe. Let me wake you all from the dream; there is no such thing as café crema. In europe there is a "café lungo" going on. But between coffee people it is not to be taken seriously, Volumes like 12oz are a myth or drinks for people you don't want to serve. It is A ridiculous idea. For 12oz of coffee one needs a drip machine.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Wilson on
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Thank you, Karl, for your voice of reason.
12 ounces from an espresso machine is ludicrous.
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Permalink Reply by Oscar Nyman on
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Always intriguing to study Americans discuss "Europe" :-) as stated by previous dudes on here, there is no such thing as a common "European" coffee culture. One thing that IS common in most European countries though is that we seldom consume coffedrinks in 12ounce or bigger volumes. A typical size for a Scandinavian drip/brewed coffee is 6-9 ounce and we probably use the biggest cups. 12 ounce and bigger can mostly be found at Starbucks or other American style latte-chains.
When thinking about it, the most common factor when it comes to European cities and coffee consumption must be the Starbucks style coffechain, slightly tweaked compared to the current US variant, using less syrups & sweeteners, drink sizes being slightly smaller + you are less likelly to find fully automatic espresso machines.
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Brady: Yes, I just simply don't have time to mess with the grinder to pull these shots "properly". But that's not to suggest that I haven't done it a few times just to see what I could come up with. The truth is, my four cafe crema customers didn't like it as much as the super long, probably 10 ounces rather than 12, but still super long shots pulled at the normal grind. After about 90 ml. or 3 ounces they are as blond as me but that's what these guys like.
And not to argue with Karl, but: Um...the first time I heard of cafe cremas was from a Swiss guy who was here on business. Then I asked around and found that it most certainly has a home in parts of Europe. Maybe not where Karl lives, but certainly in places where my customers live.
There is a cafe near to me who uses a Spanish made Visacrem machine. The water flow settings for espresso were as long as 160 ml. When I looked at the instructions for the machine it mentioned cafe cremas a few times. Obviously they exist and are not simply a North American myth.
And before I forget to mention it, I used to hang out in a Swiss restaurant in Toronto back in the 80s. Cafe Cremas were on the menue and were pulled on their espresso machine. They didn't even have drip brewers.
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