Espresso Roast
Ok, here's the story. A lady comes in my shop and orders an espresso. Her accent told me she was from Italy. She gets her espresso and exclames, "You Americans like your espresso so strong!" I ask if it was over extracted or something and she explains that in her aria of northern Italy they roast their espressos very light. She grabs a bag of a Costa Rica that I had roasted very lightly (I had dumped it right as I hear the very first pops of second crack 435 or so?) and sais that the roast level she was looking for was lighter than that. So I had some samples and partial bags of Tanzanian peaberry and some Brazil Peaberry that we had decided not to reorder. I roasted them to just after first crack. Maybe 390 or so. I like it, but my business partner hates it pulled as an espresso. It's very sweet, tangy and a rather nice body.
So here are my questions: Has anyone else ever played with lighter espresso roasts? Has anyone ever been to a place (like Italy) where espresso is roasted lighter? Has anyone ever roasted anything like that? What roast level did you take it to? Just share your experience and let me know what you think.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fraser Jamieson on
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We get experts in 364 days a year. We're closed on December 25th.
Last week we had a woman in "From the land of Cappuccinos" who expressed displeasure that her 600ml. drink was too light and not milky enough. Apparently, in the land of cappuccinos, hot milk is taken from a pot on the stove. I did not know that.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but laugh out loud when I hear these things. Hey, I was born in Hamilton, but that doesn't make me an expert on iron and steel production.
If everyone was telling me the same thing, or even close to it, I'd have to rethink my opinion; but, as every self appointed expert from afar has a different opinion on what's correct, I'll stick with the theory that there's as much or more knowledge on this side of the pond.
And I've been taken out to "Real Italian Espresso Bars" where I've had pretty ho-hum espresso. The best I've had, I've actually had near me, in Toronto Canada...and also in New York City.
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Permalink Reply by nik orosi on
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im from croatia, neighbour country to italia, and belive me, they dont know s... about coffee or espresso. i do roast on my own and similar to you, depends on coffees i have on the stock, im finish around first pops of second crack. also, i use only arabica beans. in italia, they all roast darker, specially in south italia. in north the roast bit lighter, but comparing to what i do or i sopose you, its dark as hell and wett and oily and at least 20% robusta in their blends and its just crap. in whole italia, youll find only few mazoccos and no synesso or slayer. cappuccino as we know with micro foam and latte art, man, its unknown to almost all of them.
as fraser said; my neighbour is one of most famous wine people in my country, that doesnt gime a right to say that i know all about wine.
italia and espresso, so sad!
as for roasting, lighter you roast, i found is better for french press than for espresso but its just mine oppinion...
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Permalink Reply by Stefanie Mason on
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I spent some time in Italy a few summers ago and thought their espresso was not great at all! I couldn't believe some of the stuff they would drink at the gas stops - aweful, nasty espresso - and so many people drank it. Crazy.
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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on
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haha nik laying the SMACKDOWN on italy!
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you cannot belive how they all know about what coffee is. the same as they all think that they know how to drive ferrari.
if you ask any of them what coffee is; theyll answer lavazza or illy or segafredo!?
no s.o., no pressure profiling, no blends with 2 or 3 type of coffees....
funny actually...
thats why i source my beans from london and some by direct trade and not from italia....
not a personal vendeta over italia, but im just tyred of their knowledge about espresso and cappuccino...
its about differences; we here are talking about specialty coffee, there in italia, they know only about comertial coffees...
Jared Rutledge said:haha nik laying the SMACKDOWN on italy!
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Well, no one on here is Italy bashing. I'm certainly not. (I've got too many Italian friends to do that safely)
In truth, we've had some "experts" here visiting from Washinton State too...and they actually used the phrase: "We're from Seattle...we know our coffee." (OK, I guess that was two phrases)
Anyway, they were full of themselves and didn't know poop about what they were talking about.
My basic point was that trying to adjust your roasting standards to match those of some mythical espresso capital is a big mistake.
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spot on!
Fraser Jamieson said:Well, no one on here is Italy bashing. I'm certainly not. (I've got too many Italian friends to do that safely)
In truth, we've had some "experts" here visiting from Washinton State too...and they actually used the phrase: "We're from Seattle...we know our coffee." (OK, I guess that was two phrases)
Anyway, they were full of themselves and didn't know poop about what they were talking about.
My basic point was that trying to adjust your roasting standards to match those of some mythical espresso capital is a big mistake.
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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on
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I guess it' definitely a matter of opinion and preference what is considered roasted very lightly. My roasts even touching 2nd at all I don't consider the realm of light roasts. Barest touch of 2nd is Full City. Few snaps 2nd FC+, 30-45sec Vienna, keep going for French and Italian which I don't roast for my shops. (Do for a couple wholesale accounts) I don't roast anything darker than my Vienna Gloriette blend, which isn't targeted for my espresso grinders anyway.
We pull SO espresso that hasn't touch 2nd crack all the time. Of the 5 roasts that make up my flagship Delirium espresso blend 1 element just touches 2nd, 1 element 30sec into 2nd, the other 3 elements different finish degrees but all pre-2nd, one a good 20f before 2nd.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on
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I live in Washington State and I will hole heartly second that comment. "Seattle is not the coffee capital of the world, Seattle is the milk capital of the world." That last sentence is a direct quote from Dr. Joseph John.
Fraser Jamieson said:Well, no one on here is Italy bashing. I'm certainly not. (I've got too many Italian friends to do that safely)
In truth, we've had some "experts" here visiting from Washinton State too...and they actually used the phrase: "We're from Seattle...we know our coffee." (OK, I guess that was two phrases)
Anyway, they were full of themselves and didn't know poop about what they were talking about.
My basic point was that trying to adjust your roasting standards to match those of some mythical espresso capital is a big mistake.
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Permalink Reply by Shuanna on
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Well hey.... I am here in the lovely Seattle area and I can say I know coffee! But I have also spent my adult life learning and learning then learning some more. I will say most of my coffee education has been self taught and even though I have worked in some of the most popular cafe's in seattle, their training had been shit! It's not that seattle KNOWS great coffee ...it is just that we have QUALITY coffee everywhere. You can go most places and get a good cup. I am not saying excellent cup.... but a good cup!
I have done a lot of traveling (US only) and have yet to find a city so conducive my quality coffee addiction. But hey... I haven't been everywhere so I leave that statement with room for error.
I am opening a new cafe here in approx. 2 months (assuming I find commercial space by then) and I am not even going with a seattle roasting company! I dont think seattle has the best roasters AT ALL. I even roasted up here previously for a popular company and we had nothing on some of the talent I am seeing come out of other places! Well, I need to rephrase that... I am using one roaster out of here but they have yet to be prominent in seattle. My primary roaster is going to be out of California. It is important to me to be able to offer something local....
But anyways....there are so many ways to roast for an espresso and soo many of them turn out wonderful. I am not in the mood for the same kind of espresso all the time so being able to offer variety is important to me. And in my opinion.... if Seattle knew coffee so damn well then what the hell is up with the 20oz Big gulp sizes everywhere. This goes along with the comment above about us being the 'milk capitol' of the world. You wont be able to get them at my cafe....
I am hoping my commitment and passion for quality coffee doesnt actually put me out of business. So who knows... they may toss their 20oz cups in my face and laugh all the way to the bank!
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Shuanna,
You will do well. I will use that mantra for you. Follow your passion and stick with your theme. In my little neck of the coffee woods people from the big citys go out of there way to find me.
Shuanna said:Well hey.... I am here in the lovely Seattle area and I can say I know coffee! But I have also spent my adult life learning and learning then learning some more. I will say most of my coffee education has been self taught and even though I have worked in some of the most popular cafe's in seattle, their training had been shit! It's not that seattle KNOWS great coffee ...it is just that we have QUALITY coffee everywhere. You can go most places and get a good cup. I am not saying excellent cup.... but a good cup!
I have done a lot of traveling (US only) and have yet to find a city so conducive my quality coffee addiction. But hey... I haven't been everywhere so I leave that statement with room for error.
I am opening a new cafe here in approx. 2 months (assuming I find commercial space by then) and I am not even going with a seattle roasting company! I dont think seattle has the best roasters AT ALL. I even roasted up here previously for a popular company and we had nothing on some of the talent I am seeing come out of other places! Well, I need to rephrase that... I am using one roaster out of here but they have yet to be prominent in seattle. My primary roaster is going to be out of California. It is important to me to be able to offer something local....
But anyways....there are so many ways to roast for an espresso and soo many of them turn out wonderful. I am not in the mood for the same kind of espresso all the time so being able to offer variety is important to me. And in my opinion.... if Seattle knew coffee so damn well then what the hell is up with the 20oz Big gulp sizes everywhere. This goes along with the comment above about us being the 'milk capitol' of the world. You wont be able to get them at my cafe....
I am hoping my commitment and passion for quality coffee doesnt actually put me out of business. So who knows... they may toss their 20oz cups in my face and laugh all the way to the bank!
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Permalink Reply by D. Smith on
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I thought Cafe Vita had awesome espresso when I was in Seattle. Everywhere else was really good. (Stumptown, Vitrola, etc). Better than my neck of the woods.
Shuanna said:Well hey.... I am here in the lovely Seattle area and I can say I know coffee! But I have also spent my adult life learning and learning then learning some more. I will say most of my coffee education has been self taught and even though I have worked in some of the most popular cafe's in seattle, their training had been shit! It's not that seattle KNOWS great coffee ...it is just that we have QUALITY coffee everywhere. You can go most places and get a good cup. I am not saying excellent cup.... but a good cup!
I have done a lot of traveling (US only) and have yet to find a city so conducive my quality coffee addiction. But hey... I haven't been everywhere so I leave that statement with room for error.
I am opening a new cafe here in approx. 2 months (assuming I find commercial space by then) and I am not even going with a seattle roasting company! I dont think seattle has the best roasters AT ALL. I even roasted up here previously for a popular company and we had nothing on some of the talent I am seeing come out of other places! Well, I need to rephrase that... I am using one roaster out of here but they have yet to be prominent in seattle. My primary roaster is going to be out of California. It is important to me to be able to offer something local....
But anyways....there are so many ways to roast for an espresso and soo many of them turn out wonderful. I am not in the mood for the same kind of espresso all the time so being able to offer variety is important to me. And in my opinion.... if Seattle knew coffee so damn well then what the hell is up with the 20oz Big gulp sizes everywhere. This goes along with the comment above about us being the 'milk capitol' of the world. You wont be able to get them at my cafe....
I am hoping my commitment and passion for quality coffee doesnt actually put me out of business. So who knows... they may toss their 20oz cups in my face and laugh all the way to the bank!
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