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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on January 26, 2010 at 5:34pm

1) this is the barista exchanges and travel forum. you should have posted this in "equipment."

2) at least in north carolina, you don't have to have an NSF machine (or even deal with the health department) if you only use to-go cups. see what your local NZ health people have to say.

3) see if you can get a used LM linea or a la san marco (i used one in sydney and really liked it) for around the $2,000 mark. if you're remotely busy those machines you're thinking about might not be able to handle the throughput.

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Permalink Reply by Marshall Fuss on January 26, 2010 at 5:51pm

If you are concerned about durability, "commercial" equipment is built to take considerable use and abuse and be easier to keep sanitary.

But, considering your plans, the more important definition is what your local health department will approve for commercial use on a cart. This varies widely among communities. They will also tell you how your mik and other products must be stored. They may even tell you how much surface area you need and other details that will boggle your mind. Los Angeles County is one of the most finicky. Other places are often more flexible.

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Permalink Reply by Chris on January 27, 2010 at 5:32pm

For a pretty good general rule of thumb yardstick, suggest to the dealer or manufacturer that you're going to turn it on at 6 AM seven days a week, and not turn it off 'til 10 PM. If they're OK with supporting your warranty with that kind of use, I'd suppose that it'd fall into the 'commercial' pile. If not, it's a good idea to pass on it anyway.

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Permalink Reply by Pangi on January 27, 2010 at 6:12pm

Chris,

Thanks, but it's not for a cafe environment. It's for a farmers market setup max 2 x 5 hr shifts per week. The issue is more regarding insurance. I'm wanting to know if I will be covered if I use a machine that does not have NSF approval.

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Permalink Reply by Brady on January 27, 2010 at 6:43pm

Previous posters have covered this pretty well. Its construction and capacity. However I think that if the manufacturer has intended the equipment for commercial use they will seek NSF approvals.

Another item of note, from the Vibiemme specs:
"Product Safety Listing: UL Commercial for home and office use"

All that said, I've seen "prosumer" machines like this used in light-duty commercial applications before. I feel like if you are going to be doing any sort of volume, go with a real commercial machine.

As others have said, check with health department as far as the NSF thing. If you are concerned about insurance implications, check with your insurance company. I don't believe that insurance companies here in the states care about NSF - that's simply a health department consideration. They might care about the UL certification though.

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Permalink Reply by Chris on January 29, 2010 at 10:02pm

Pangi said:

Chris,

Thanks, but it's not for a cafe environment.

Sorry, that's why I used the 'suggest'. You don't have to actually use it like that, of course, but if neither balks at the suggestion that their machine be used in such a manner, it's a pretty good indication that it's a commercial machine. Meaning that they manufacturer intended it to be uses in commerce. If either freaks about you suggesting that you may use it that way, it'd be clear that it wasn't intended for that kind of use.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on January 30, 2010 at 5:04am

Hi Paul,

if you looking for some advise, then i suggest that you contact GEEC, i would talk talk to Scott Gordon, he should be able to help you and advise on MOBILE applications.

scott.gordon@geec.com

Regards

Jason
CMA Astoria

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Permalink Reply by Brady on January 30, 2010 at 6:52am

Jason said:

Hi Paul,

if you looking for some advise, then i suggest that you contact GEEC, i would talk talk to Scott Gordon, he should be able to help you and advise on MOBILE applications.

scott.gordon@geec.com

Regards

Jason
CMA Astoria

Perhaps you or Scott could make contributions to this discussion directly. He could speak, of course, to the GENERAL nature of a prosumer-vs-commercial in an environment like the OP has?

FWIW, the prosumer machine that I was referring to earlier was a Wega Mininova that one of my clients uses at their "upstairs" bar. The differences in construction as compared to the 1-group Astoria Argenta that I own are pretty striking. The Wega is clearly made more like a home machine - with a square boiler and lighter-duty construction. The Argenta is just a narrower version of the 3-group we run at the shop, with full-welded round boiler and commercial construction. There is a tradeoff to consider - lighter weight could be a benefit in portable situations, but boiler capacity and element power are relevant to production capacity.

Shot quality is also a consideration. The back-to-back shot pulling demands of a commercial environment are pretty different from even the most demanding home environment. You want to make sure that stability and recovery time are adequate.

I'd pick gently-used commercial over new prosumer if it were me.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on January 30, 2010 at 10:04am

Hi,

I would agree with your thoughts above, and both of the machines mentioned are produced by CMA for two of our (WEGA and ASTORIA) brands. For the application that's been mentioned i would strongly suggest a standard 1 or if even possible 2grp machine as recovery time and stability are going to be the biggest issue here.

The larger the boiler the better in a mobile application.

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