Programmed buttons: to use or not to use?
A recent discussion about a member's free upgrade to the volumetric version of an espresso machine generated a bit of debate about the use of the programmed buttons on an espresso machine.
Since it was on a slightly different topic, I've split that discussion off and copied the responses below.
Please discuss, I'm curious how thoughts on the merits of the programmed buttons might have changed recently. They do seem to be one answer to the problem of hugely varying crema volumes effecting shot weight.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Simon Ouderkirk on
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I guess my question is this: if you have spent time training your baristi, imbuing them with your own enthusiasm to the point that it is unstoppably contagious, filling your shop with a culture of excellence and your team is pulling exact 19g doses from your Super Jolly every time and swinging Stockfleth so consistently it would make a tech judge swoon, hitting the basket to the gasket and hitting the brew button so fast it's hard to see - why would they even want to use volumetric dosing?
Right? We're saying it is good for high-turnover shops with low quality expectations. There is a market and a place for that kind of place. Hopefully they are clearly distinguished and marketed differently than our products, but that's a discussion for another time. A shop of committed baristi, who are consistent without mechanical aid in their other preparations, I think would be loathe to use volumetric controls.
Right?
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Permalink Reply by Dustin DeMers on
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Wow! You just said everything i could/would of thought, thank you.
Jacob Casella said:
I train and work at a few cafes using Marzoccos with the auto-volumetric functions. I want us to have the best possible espresso, so I'm constantly kind of staring at those buttons wondering if they're my enemy or not.
The way automatic buttons can encourage laziness is the biggest problem with them.
I'm not super-opposed to the volumetric for a couple reasons, however.
- On an unavoidable pragmatic level: the cafes I work in serve 20oz espresso drinks. I can fit a 20oz cup under my PFs (the naked ones anyway), but I can't see the extraction. The alternative to trusting the AV button, then, is to pull the shot into an intermediary vessel, which doesn't make me that happy either.
- Color changes in espresso...I think maybe the visual appearance gets overemphasized. If anyone can prove me wrong on this, please do so. If my shots are consistently dosed and the grind is dialed in so they brew to the right time...the shots taste good, even if they get blonde before the time is up. Brewing manually with the same settings, and stopping based on the visual appearance, does not seem to improve flavor.
- The volumetric controls seem to be fairly independent of crema volume. I'm going to go test this a little more rigorously now just to be sure, but it makes sense given the way the flowmeters work: they're measuring the water moving through the group before it contacts the coffee to form crema, not the volume of the dispensed drink. Thus, despite the name, volumetric controls seem to produce shots that are more consistent by mass than by volume of the actual prepared espresso. It took me a few rounds of setting the shot volumes with fresh, gassy espresso before I figured out to use a scale instead of a graduated cylinder.
- Other things being equal, I like the ability to knock out one more inconsistency in my grind/dose/heat/water ratios. The downside to every AV machine I've ever seen, though, is that the volumetric controls are not amenable to rapid adjustment. I think we might be less opposed to AVs if we could dial in the espresso volume as finely and as readily as we change our grind settings.
On the cons side:
- Laziness, laziness. I think this is part of a larger issue with coffee preparation, where some part of people's brains say "it's just coffee" and don't give it as much attention as you need. I tell my trainees all the time: you wouldn't serve a burnt sandwich, you wouldn't serve melted ice cream...why serve a bad shot? But, it's hard to get into people's brains when a.) they can just hit this button and forget about it, and b.) too many people, even people working espresso machines, haven't had that really revelatory shot of espresso. That godshot that blows your mind, and then you want to make shots that good all the time. Most people just think espresso is super-strong, super-bitter, so how bad could it be? And these buttons encourage that.
- My biggest complaint, at least with the Linea-type volumetric controls, is heat loss. Take the top of my machine off, I've got these big sturdy group-heads with these dinky copper pipes coming out of it, to the flowmeter, back in...which I know is a big part of that temperature loss I can measure at the head. The GB5 flowmeters seem to be a lot better, less room for thermal loss. I don't know how well or badly other machines do.
- The real bummer about the flowmeter set-up is that, even if I use manual controls for my shot...the water takes the same path, so I can't avoid all those heat-loss issues.
Right now I don't think I'd buy a volumetric machine if I were opening my own shop. But I think if volumetric controls were designed for a real specialty barista, instead of just being there for convenience, I would be extremely interested. At least as much as I'm interested in pressure-profiling machines. It's kind of silly to think that we should use a combination of techniques and grinders to get a super-consistent dose, PID the machine for heat, maybe even control the pressure profile...but just control volume by eyeballing color changes.
I'm also ready to welcome our new robot overlords, so it might just be I have less of an instinct against automation than most.
Brady said:
To clarify... Let's say that you dial in your extraction at the beginning of your shift to achieve a good shot, with the idea being that for the next period of time, you'll try to duplicate that extraction's dose, grind, temp, time, and finished volume or weight. You will see small variations in the shots that you pull through your shift... they can be minimized, but are unavoidable. Will your shots be better and more consistent if the volume of water stays the same as your calibration shots, or will they be better if you watch the shot and make a decision on a shot-by-shot basis?
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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That to me is the potential of these buttons. For someone that would be brewing on scales if they were practical, this is the next best thing.
One option for one looking for usable adjustability might be to program the buttons for 3 slightly different volumes - say 1.5oz, 1.6oz, 1.7oz OR something like a 30g shot, 33g shot, and 36g shot. Then at dial-in, the barista can pick an extraction. volume. That leftover button could be programmed for a good 4oz water flush.
FWIW, 0.1 fluid ounce of water weighs roughly 3g. Assuming that the dose is 18 grams of ground espresso, a variation of 0.1 ounces in finished extraction changes your brew ratio by 5%
To Mike's point, a great use of volumetric buttons is programming different flushes. I've toyed with the idea of programming flushes for different group idle times, but not gotten far.
Good discussion so far.
Jacob Casella said lots of stuff, including this:...The volumetric controls seem to be fairly independent of crema volume. I'm going to go test this a little more rigorously now just to be sure, but it makes sense given the way the flowmeters work: they're measuring the water moving through the group before it contacts the coffee to form crema, not the volume of the dispensed drink. Thus, despite the name, volumetric controls seem to produce shots that are more consistent by mass than by volume of the actual prepared espresso. It took me a few rounds of setting the shot volumes with fresh, gassy espresso before I figured out to use a scale instead of a graduated cylinder.Other things being equal, I like the ability to knock out one more inconsistency in my grind/dose/heat/water ratios. The downside to every AV machine I've ever seen, though, is that the volumetric controls are not amenable to rapid adjustment. I think we might be less opposed to AVs if we could dial in the espresso volume as finely and as readily as we change our grind settings...
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Simon, though I think that's probably the bottom line, I don't think that's really what we're all saying.
What you've said is kind of the long-held popular opinion. My hope was that in this thread was that we could have an open discussion on the potential uses of this kind of machine and whether there was a place for this tool in the quality oriented shop. We could discus various thoughts on benefits and drawbacks.
Specifically I think the question is, in the scenario that you described could the use of those buttons make your espresso even better? I don't think so.
I like the idea that this community might periodically revisit long-held conventions... to explore the reasons we do some of the things we do and assess their validity in the face that all we've learned recently. I almost always learn something in the process.
Simon Ouderkirk said:I guess my question is this: if you have spent time training your baristi, imbuing them with your own enthusiasm to the point that it is unstoppably contagious, filling your shop with a culture of excellence and your team is pulling exact 19g doses from your Super Jolly every time and swinging Stockfleth so consistently it would make a tech judge swoon, hitting the basket to the gasket and hitting the brew button so fast it's hard to see - why would they even want to use volumetric dosing?
Right? We're saying it is good for high-turnover shops with low quality expectations. There is a market and a place for that kind of place. Hopefully they are clearly distinguished and marketed differently than our products, but that's a discussion for another time. A shop of committed baristi, who are consistent without mechanical aid in their other preparations, I think would be loathe to use volumetric controls.
Right?
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Permalink Reply by R. Justin Shepherd on
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I think this depends on your market, and how far along the "wave," so to speak, that you are (and can be). As I mentioned here, there are still plenty of markets (like mine) where a pourover bar and a Coava-style menu aren't going to work, at least in the short term. Additionally, there are markets (again, like mine) where there aren't 10 cafés in a mile radius to choose from. In my town of 50,000 there's Starbucks, Panera and me, and while we work hard to stand out from these places and offer a totally different level of quality, there are simply too many customers ordering "Venti Macchiatto" (whatever that means) to simply say "nope, we only sell single-origin, 12-ounce cups." This effort of mine, toward higher quality packaged as something just slightly different than customers already know, has led to plenty of people moving up the quality ladder from 20-ounce white mochas to 12-ounce lattes in ceramic mugs. But we still have the occasional rush — and situated on the town's square, the occasional mega-rush of a parade or some similar event — where 10 large mochas in a row would have even the purest of baristas reaching for the volumetric buttons, and for good reason. So, for a shop like mine — and there are plenty of them, but probably far too many that choose convenience over quality as a rule of thumb — volumetrics provide at the very least a safety net of sorts for that occasion.
That said, I agree with your basic sentiment, and will be enforcing a strict "only for emergencies" policy regarding the volumetrics — which, again, I didn't ask for but happen to be getting.
Simon Ouderkirk said:I guess my question is this: if you have spent time training your baristi, imbuing them with your own enthusiasm to the point that it is unstoppably contagious, filling your shop with a culture of excellence and your team is pulling exact 19g doses from your Super Jolly every time and swinging Stockfleth so consistently it would make a tech judge swoon, hitting the basket to the gasket and hitting the brew button so fast it's hard to see - why would they even want to use volumetric dosing?
Right? We're saying it is good for high-turnover shops with low quality expectations. There is a market and a place for that kind of place. Hopefully they are clearly distinguished and marketed differently than our products, but that's a discussion for another time. A shop of committed baristi, who are consistent without mechanical aid in their other preparations, I think would be loathe to use volumetric controls.
Right?
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Brady;
I am going to bust out the scale and have a go at our Linea AV. At the moment, we use the wee cup button for "Flush-after-long-downtime," the full cup button for "flush-when-busy" and that's it, really. I am not 100% certain that "consistent flowmeter volume" = "consistent weight in cup," though I have no reasonable argument why it would or would not. So, in the spirit of Schecter, I'll experiment for a while and return with my results.
R. Justin;
The argument that a barista can pull shots manually when they have only two or three drinks but needs to use mechanical assistance (ie a flowmeter) when busy seriously underestimates the abilities of your baristi. When I came on at the bakeries, they made the same argument; on Saturday and Sunday morning, no matter what training program I put in place, their baristi NEEDED those AV buttons. This is bunk: once a barista has gained proficiency, I believe that to allow them mechanical advantage when its busy is a tacit acceptance that they cannot handle the rush alone. But I bet they could. If we can, and we're only a bakery with a coffee program, then I reckon a dedicated coffee shop could do even better.
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Permalink Reply by Jeremy Gray on
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I think it's pretty interesting that the general consensus is that using the programmed button leads to lower quality. So all one would have to do to win at the WBC is manually pull the shot? Very few(if any, I didn't see every one) of the contestant's I watched were doing it that way.
My point is, it's a bit ignorant to say that quality is lower when using the volumetric button. Could it be lower? Yes Always lower? No way
Could the fact exist that the Barista still has a choice to serve a shot they let run a little long while pulling manually? yes or automatically? yes
I guess this discussion will eventually lead to the fact that we should all be using Lever machines as well, cause we surely shouldn't be letting the machine do the work that the Barista should be doing. Right?
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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on
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Until you've run a coffee program and watched the use of volumetric buttons encourage laziness in your baristas, I'll just consider what you've said to be pure theory.
Jeremy Gray said:I think it's pretty interesting that the general consensus is that using the programmed button leads to lower quality. So all one would have to do to win at the WBC is manually pull the shot? Very few(if any, I didn't see every one) of the contestant's I watched were doing it that way.
My point is, it's a bit ignorant to say that quality is lower when using the volumetric button. Could it be lower? Yes Always lower? No way
Could the fact exist that the Barista still has a choice to serve a shot they let run a little long while pulling manually? yes or automatically? yes
I guess this discussion will eventually lead to the fact that we should all be using Lever machines as well, cause we surely shouldn't be letting the machine do the work that the Barista should be doing. Right?
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I actually never said that I didn't agree with the Laziness "theory" In fact I would agree.
I also never said that The volumetric is better than the manual, but I'm sure those words will be put in my mouth as well.
The point I was making, is that the very standards that judge the baristas deemed the best in the world would also say exactly what I did. The use of volumetric buttons can still produce quality espresso. To say that they can't, is totally ignorant. That's what was said.
And since you seem to know my background as well, I'll clear up that I do run a coffee program. But it's probably a terrible one.
Jason Haeger said:Until you've run a coffee program and watched the use of volumetric buttons encourage laziness in your baristas, I'll just consider what you've said to be pure theory.
Jeremy Gray said:I think it's pretty interesting that the general consensus is that using the programmed button leads to lower quality. So all one would have to do to win at the WBC is manually pull the shot? Very few(if any, I didn't see every one) of the contestant's I watched were doing it that way.
My point is, it's a bit ignorant to say that quality is lower when using the volumetric button. Could it be lower? Yes Always lower? No way
Could the fact exist that the Barista still has a choice to serve a shot they let run a little long while pulling manually? yes or automatically? yes
I guess this discussion will eventually lead to the fact that we should all be using Lever machines as well, cause we surely shouldn't be letting the machine do the work that the Barista should be doing. Right?
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I met your assumption with another assumption. What does competition have to do with a working espresso bar? You've just agreed with what everyone has said, just from a different angle.
Chill out, man.
Jeremy Gray said:I actually never said that I didn't agree with the Laziness "theory" In fact I would agree.
I also never said that The volumetric is better than the manual, but I'm sure those words will be put in my mouth as well.
The point I was making, is that the very standards that judge the baristas deemed the best in the world would also say exactly what I did. The use of volumetric buttons can still produce quality espresso. To say that they can't, is totally ignorant. That's what was said.
And since you seem to know my background as well, I'll clear up that I do run a coffee program. But it's probably a terrible one.
Jason Haeger said:Until you've run a coffee program and watched the use of volumetric buttons encourage laziness in your baristas, I'll just consider what you've said to be pure theory.
Jeremy Gray said:I think it's pretty interesting that the general consensus is that using the programmed button leads to lower quality. So all one would have to do to win at the WBC is manually pull the shot? Very few(if any, I didn't see every one) of the contestant's I watched were doing it that way.
My point is, it's a bit ignorant to say that quality is lower when using the volumetric button. Could it be lower? Yes Always lower? No way
Could the fact exist that the Barista still has a choice to serve a shot they let run a little long while pulling manually? yes or automatically? yes
I guess this discussion will eventually lead to the fact that we should all be using Lever machines as well, cause we surely shouldn't be letting the machine do the work that the Barista should be doing. Right?
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Sorry to come across like I'm angry, I'm not. Sarcasm gets the better of me.
I do agree with most of the discussion. Just not the comments made linking low quality espresso with volumetric use. which aren't assumptions, just actual comments. As said, can it produce low quality? yes, so could manually pulling a shot. Either way it's the Baristas responsibility to know the difference.
What does competition have to do with running an espresso bar? Well I would hope that it builds awareness and practices with in our industry, and develops standards within the Barista community, otherwise, what's the point. I'm pretty sure we're all shooting for the same quality.
Answer these questions for me.
Are the drinks they're making in the WBC lower quality than the drinks your making in your shop?
if yes, Is it because they didn't extract manually?
That's my point.
So use the manual button, keep your baristas from being lazy, and you'll have the best shots in the world. As long as everything else lines up as well, like grind, dose, tamp, and let's not forget the temp at the group head, and PID, and how many bars of pressure are pushing that manually extracted water through the portafilter, and the baristas are paying close attention to what the shot is doing, and know how to tell the difference between a good and bad shot.
Unless you compete, then use the volumetric button to be the best barista in the world. As long as everything else lines up as well like grind, dose, tamp, and let's not forget the temp at the group head, and PID, and how many bars of pressure are pushing that volumetrically extracted water through the portafilter, and the baristas are paying close attention to what the shot is doing, and know how to tell the difference between a good and bad shot.
You can still expect good espresso from a volumetric extraction, if not, something else is wrong. That's what I should have said in my first post.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Jason Haeger said:I met your assumption with another assumption. What does competition have to do with a working espresso bar? You've just agreed with what everyone has said, just from a different angle.
Chill out, man.
Jeremy Gray said:I actually never said that I didn't agree with the Laziness "theory" In fact I would agree.
I also never said that The volumetric is better than the manual, but I'm sure those words will be put in my mouth as well.
The point I was making, is that the very standards that judge the baristas deemed the best in the world would also say exactly what I did. The use of volumetric buttons can still produce quality espresso. To say that they can't, is totally ignorant. That's what was said.
And since you seem to know my background as well, I'll clear up that I do run a coffee program. But it's probably a terrible one.
Jason Haeger said:Until you've run a coffee program and watched the use of volumetric buttons encourage laziness in your baristas, I'll just consider what you've said to be pure theory.
Jeremy Gray said:I think it's pretty interesting that the general consensus is that using the programmed button leads to lower quality. So all one would have to do to win at the WBC is manually pull the shot? Very few(if any, I didn't see every one) of the contestant's I watched were doing it that way.
My point is, it's a bit ignorant to say that quality is lower when using the volumetric button. Could it be lower? Yes Always lower? No way
Could the fact exist that the Barista still has a choice to serve a shot they let run a little long while pulling manually? yes or automatically? yes
I guess this discussion will eventually lead to the fact that we should all be using Lever machines as well, cause we surely shouldn't be letting the machine do the work that the Barista should be doing. Right?
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Understood. So do you re-program each group-head every day to compensate for the age of the coffee?
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