Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brady on January 25, 2012 at 5:59am

In advance of the latte art gurus jumping in, let me ask some clarifying questions...

How have you changed your routine when switching from the Silvia to the Strada?

Sounds to me like you are simply incorporating more air on the Strada. Having to stretch for a longer amount of time makes no sense to me. Are you opening the steam valve all the way?

Here's a quick test. Pour your ideal milk at home into a pint glass (or to-go cold cup), let it separate completely and measure the foam. Then repeat with the milk you are making at work.

One other thing to remember - different machines will steam differently. The jump from a tiny home machine to a large commercial one is especially dramatic - you are indeed learning how to steam milk all over again. It always takes a little bit of adjustment when switching machines, no matter how good you are on your usual rig. Some aspects will be easier, some harder. Adjust your expectations, put in your time, and don't get discouraged if initial results are disappointing.

Also, make sure you are spending just as much time perfecting your shots... as I'm sure they are pulling quite differently as well. They are far more important than your art.

Good luck.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Daniel Demers on January 25, 2012 at 4:29pm

I took the same type of jump going backwards from being on a commercial machine (LM Linea) to being on a home machine (El Salvatore) that could be borderline commercial.  I have found I need to stretch less on a commercial machine than on the home machine, as commercial machines tend to steam much quicker than home machines.  With really powerful steam there is definitely less room for error, so you need to stay a bit more focused and steady when your texturing the milk after stretching. 

Definitely just practice more with the Strada, the more you use it, the more comfortable you'll get on it!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Andy Kwon on January 25, 2012 at 4:34pm

Thanks Brady, I haven't changed the way I steam milk much.

Milk steaming is pretty simple to me. I just get a nice clockwise circulation, and I start stretching the milk until I deem sufficient. Then I sink the steam wand maybe 1/4" deeper and just maintain the roll until the temperature is appropriate.

I do the same thing on the Silvia, and it's given me the best results.

BTW I don't open up the steam valve all the way on the LM, because it's just too powerful. I know that Synessos and Nuova Simonellis function more like an on/off switch, but if I cranked the LM's steam lever all the way down, it would probably shoot milk up to the second floor. I get a nice and steady roll, comparable if not stronger than what I get on the Silvia.

PS: I'm pretty solid with pulling shots, but I know what you mean.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Andy Kwon on January 25, 2012 at 4:47pm

Thanks Daniel,

I understand how to steam milk. I'm pretty good at it, and I take pride in it.

That said, it's giving me microfoam that reacts a bit differently than what I'm used to at home. Maybe I need to polish/swirl it more...

One of my latte art role models is Hiroshi Sawada, and I think he has a Linea at his cafe (Streamer Coffee). He seems to get really nice, slender leaves with his microfoam. I'm assuming the Strada is just as capable, although I've read that the steaming on the Strada is different from anything LM's done before with the Linea and others...

Daniel Demers said:

I took the same type of jump going backwards from being on a commercial machine (LM Linea) to being on a home machine (El Salvatore) that could be borderline commercial.  I have found I need to stretch less on a commercial machine than on the home machine, as commercial machines tend to steam much quicker than home machines.  With really powerful steam there is definitely less room for error, so you need to stay a bit more focused and steady when your texturing the milk after stretching. 

Definitely just practice more with the Strada, the more you use it, the more comfortable you'll get on it!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Daniel Demers on January 25, 2012 at 4:53pm

Yes! 

Andy Kwon said:

(snipped)

Maybe I need to polish/swirl it more...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brady on January 25, 2012 at 7:00pm

Couple of things...

 

Andy Kwon said:

Thanks Brady, I haven't changed the way I steam milk much.

 

Milk steaming is pretty simple to me. I just get a nice clockwise circulation, and I start stretching the milk until I deem sufficient. Then I sink the steam wand maybe 1/4" deeper and just maintain the roll until the temperature is appropriate.

 

I do the same thing on the Silvia, and it's given me the best results.

 

 

Sorry, should clarify... what I meant when I asked about what you've changed is how has your entire sequence changed between the two machines. On the Silvia were you pulling shots first or steaming milk first? Surely you aren't doing the same sequence on the Strada?

 

You should begin your stretching immediately by the way, you don't have time to get circulation started first.

 

Andy Kwon said:

BTW I don't open up the steam valve all the way on the LM, because it's just too powerful. I know that Synessos and Nuova Simonellis function more like an on/off switch, but if I cranked the LM's steam lever all the way down, it would probably shoot milk up to the second floor. I get a nice and steady roll, comparable if not stronger than what I get on the Silvia.

 

I suspect that this is your problem. I'd venture to guess that if you learn how to work with 100% power your issues will disappear.

And last...

Andy Kwon said:

Thanks Daniel,

 

I understand how to steam milk. I'm pretty good at it, and I take pride in it.

 

Step back a second. You seem to know what needs to happen to steam milk, in theory, and in practice on a Silvia. That does not mean that you understand how to steam great milk on a Strada, an Aurelia, a Classe 9, etc... yet. That is absolutely ok - like I said before we all have a learning curve on new machines. Steaming on a new rig is a humbling experience for most of us, you will probably not be the exception. Try taking less pride in it and see if that helps :).

Adapt. Overcome.

Good luck!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dustin DeMers on January 25, 2012 at 8:45pm

So it could defiantly be a couple of things. First guess is the pitcher your using at work is different than the one at work. Doesnt matter if it looks the same, it needs to be the same brand. Even very slight differences will have a profound affect till you figure out the pitcher.

Second guess: since steaming on a stock strada is a nightmare. Try turning down the steam boiler, or getting a smaller tip on the steam wand. Slower is better. I love steaming on my Silvia! Its about as slow as you can get with still having the milk swirl. Also make sure there isnt a leak coming out the threads of the tip on the strada. I dont know why, but this will really f up your froth.

And every machine is absolutely different to steam on(ive worked on a bunch recently). So its going to take a little bit of time for you to get adjusted. In fact i switch up how i steam depending on the machine. On the strada I form a whirlpool, on the FB80(with 12oz pitchers), i fold.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Andy Kwon on January 26, 2012 at 3:04pm

Thanks Brady,

On the Silvia, I pull the shot first. And then I let the boiler come up to around 175, before I start steaming. The PID is programmed to stop heating the boiler at 184, so I find that 175 is a good temperature to start steaming so the boiler never goes out. After I finish steaming, I don't let the milk sit for long. I start pouring around 15 seconds after I'm done steaming. I polish for about 5 seconds, but not that long...

As for 100% steam power, I don't think it's really necessary. The Silvia's steam power is nowhere near even 50% steam power of the Strada, yet it's giving me decent foam.

Plus, I'm only steaming 6 oz of milk, so 100% steam power would be overboard. I don't know if you've used a Strada before, but from what I've read, the steam power exceeds other machines like the Simonelli by a long shot.

But you make great points, and at the end of the day, I'm not pouring good latte art with the Strada, so obviously I'm messing up with either the texture or the swirling or the pour. I don't know, but the guy who's training me says my texture is spot-on.

It's tough, 'cause the training sessions are only around an hour long, and if I'm lucky, I get to pour six or seven times. We're doing other stuff as well.

I'm gonna get to go back in tomorrow for another hour, so this time, I'm gonna try asking the trainer to pour the latte art from milk that I steamed. He seems to be a lot better at steaming/latte art, but he's only shown me personally a few times. And the last time I really zoned in and paid super attention to detail, it was his worst pour to date... heh...

Brady said:

Couple of things...

 

Andy Kwon said:

Thanks Brady, I haven't changed the way I steam milk much.

 

Milk steaming is pretty simple to me. I just get a nice clockwise circulation, and I start stretching the milk until I deem sufficient. Then I sink the steam wand maybe 1/4" deeper and just maintain the roll until the temperature is appropriate.

 

I do the same thing on the Silvia, and it's given me the best results.

 

 

Sorry, should clarify... what I meant when I asked about what you've changed is how has your entire sequence changed between the two machines. On the Silvia were you pulling shots first or steaming milk first? Surely you aren't doing the same sequence on the Strada?

 

You should begin your stretching immediately by the way, you don't have time to get circulation started first.

 

Andy Kwon said:

BTW I don't open up the steam valve all the way on the LM, because it's just too powerful. I know that Synessos and Nuova Simonellis function more like an on/off switch, but if I cranked the LM's steam lever all the way down, it would probably shoot milk up to the second floor. I get a nice and steady roll, comparable if not stronger than what I get on the Silvia.

 

I suspect that this is your problem. I'd venture to guess that if you learn how to work with 100% power your issues will disappear.

And last...

Andy Kwon said:

Thanks Daniel,

 

I understand how to steam milk. I'm pretty good at it, and I take pride in it.

 

Step back a second. You seem to know what needs to happen to steam milk, in theory, and in practice on a Silvia. That does not mean that you understand how to steam great milk on a Strada, an Aurelia, a Classe 9, etc... yet. That is absolutely ok - like I said before we all have a learning curve on new machines. Steaming on a new rig is a humbling experience for most of us, you will probably not be the exception. Try taking less pride in it and see if that helps :).

Adapt. Overcome.

Good luck!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Andy Kwon on January 26, 2012 at 3:14pm

Thanks Dustin,

They have several pitchers, and they've basically the standard types. They even have the same Rattleware pitcher I use in my videos. They have some other stuff, but they're basically identical... not Motta or Espro Toroids here, heh.

But yeah, I totally know what you mean. Little things seem to yield big differences.

I also found that the crema gets washed out a lot. I wish there was a term for it, but check out this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyMvizMCjcE

Notice this guy's crema also gets washed out. Observe the back end of the cup, and how the surface starts rifting. Do you know why it's doing this? Is it because the crema is too dense?

When this happens on the Silvia, it means I didn't swirl/polish enough. On the Strada however, no matter how much I swirl the milk, it often does this. And if it doesn't wash out like that, then the pour comes on really thick and blurry...

That said, once the crema washes out, I find that I can start pouring the art like I'm used to... the surface becomes glossy/wet for the milk to start radiating throughout the canvas. Unfortunately however, I have less time to apply the art by the time the surface has stabilized.

The person in the video is pouring a large latte, from what it looks like... I'm only doing a cap (6 oz), so I need to stabilize the crema in half the time.

Not that I wanna do latte art the way it's done in that video. Something about it seems sloppy to me. But I've always wanted to understand the science behind it, especially considering how often it's occurring with my experiences on the Strada.

Dustin DeMers said:

So it could defiantly be a couple of things. First guess is the pitcher your using at work is different than the one at work. Doesnt matter if it looks the same, it needs to be the same brand. Even very slight differences will have a profound affect till you figure out the pitcher.

Second guess: since steaming on a stock strada is a nightmare. Try turning down the steam boiler, or getting a smaller tip on the steam wand. Slower is better. I love steaming on my Silvia! Its about as slow as you can get with still having the milk swirl. Also make sure there isnt a leak coming out the threads of the tip on the strada. I dont know why, but this will really f up your froth.

And every machine is absolutely different to steam on(ive worked on a bunch recently). So its going to take a little bit of time for you to get adjusted. In fact i switch up how i steam depending on the machine. On the strada I form a whirlpool, on the FB80(with 12oz pitchers), i fold.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on January 26, 2012 at 6:10pm

"Washing out" is just a sign of you pouring too fast and breaking the crema.  Pour slower and don't keep your cup tipped as long.  If you notice a pattern of the crema breaking at a certain point/volume, note that point and be sure to flatten your cup at that point (ensuring that your pour is centered as well).

Sounds to me like you just have different "steam types," a matter of wetter or drier foam. How much water is in the sightglass on the Strada?  What about the Silvia (do Silvia's have a sightglass)?

You're no doubt using different brands of milk as well, that will make a huge difference.  I've recently switched "brands" and even though the both use the same dairies, the milk steams differently from one to the other.

I'd say, judging by your video verses how I would pour, you need to wait longer before you push and break the crema.  Your cup should be 2/3-3/4 full before you're really speeding up the pour and dropping your pour height.  Stop trying to make things happen so early in order to have room to pour 17 rosettas and just focus on pouring one good one.

-bry

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Andy Kwon on January 27, 2012 at 11:36am

Thanks Bryan,

The Strada at the shop doesn't have a sight glass. It's hooked up to water lines...

I got to go in early and try some more pours. I took your advice on not pouring too fast and breaking the crema, but I also decided to start the pour earlier.

At the shop, I'd start the pour about 2/3 way, but I decided to start it about halfway, and it was actually not bad. The rosetta was bigger and actually filled the cup. It was a bit thicker than I'd preferred, but I think I can tweak that in the future. I think in the past, I was pouring too late.

After pouring into a cap though, they had me pouring machiatos and gibraltars, so I couldn't experiment that much more with cap/latte pours. And then the line got really long, so that was the end of training for me...

Can't wait to get back on Monday... I believe that's the next training day.

Bryan Wray said:

"Washing out" is just a sign of you pouring too fast and breaking the crema.  Pour slower and don't keep your cup tipped as long.  If you notice a pattern of the crema breaking at a certain point/volume, note that point and be sure to flatten your cup at that point (ensuring that your pour is centered as well).

Sounds to me like you just have different "steam types," a matter of wetter or drier foam. How much water is in the sightglass on the Strada?  What about the Silvia (do Silvia's have a sightglass)?

You're no doubt using different brands of milk as well, that will make a huge difference.  I've recently switched "brands" and even though the both use the same dairies, the milk steams differently from one to the other.

I'd say, judging by your video verses how I would pour, you need to wait longer before you push and break the crema.  Your cup should be 2/3-3/4 full before you're really speeding up the pour and dropping your pour height.  Stop trying to make things happen so early in order to have room to pour 17 rosettas and just focus on pouring one good one.

-bry

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion