Need Tech Opinion: La Marzocco Linea Blown Heating Element
We purchased a used La Marzocco Linea 4 group refurbished machine from a dealer in California (we are in Alabama) which yes I know is full of risk. But we were told the machine was stripped top to bottom, faulty parts replaced, and fully tested. Well a little over hour into our Grand Opening the machine stopped producing steam. EVERYTHING was hooked up exactly according to the manual, the machine was only used in testing for random shots unlike our big event where we ran two baristas on the machine, and the only thing we noticed was it was hard to get our milk to foam which we thought was the milk itself and even tried others to see with no luck.
Well turns out is was in fact the heating element as you can see from attached pics. This is just a few shots but there were multiple breaks where the wire was blown out, insides gone, but wire still connected so would still work. Yet we were told by the tech that it was a perfectly good element and fully tested and "must have just blown....they do that". I'm a doctor, I'm not a complete fool (besides buying a machine from across the country) and I have never seen deep deep rust appear so fast. As you can see the element is rusted all the way through and broken. Now he's saying it was fine when shipped and that we blew it. That was LESS THAN A WEEK apart! Has anyone ever seen an element rust through in under a week? Realistically he says it happened AT the Grand Opening. That would mean 36 hours from blow to rust! Truth or BS???
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Mike, that's a really unfortunate and frustrating situation. I do think the seller's position, as you've described the situation, is feasible. This is a long post, but there's a lot going on here.
Based on the pictures, I don't believe that was a new heating element. It is, however, entirely possible that it would test as being completely functional a week ago.
One of the difficulties with reconditioned, refurbished, or restored machines is the lack of precision or consistency. There are some components that will almost certainly be replaced, but most parts will just be tested and replaced as-necessary. Some of these components (especially electrical) will fail in the near future without warning. You may well end up with a situation where your machine is working perfectly when it leaves the shop but then fails on the first day it's fired up.
It's a balancing act - replace too many components and the sale price goes up too high, too few and you're mis-representing the product. That's why there's so much variation in the condition of these machines. Hence the risk on the buyers end and sellers end.
I experienced situation similar to yours with a used machine that I sold a few years ago. I had thoroughly bench tested it and replaced or repaired everything that had issues. This included electrically testing the heating element - I found continuity across all coils, correct electrical resistance, no short to ground. Since older heating elements can be problematic to re-install - requiring new gaskets and sometimes not re-sealing properly, I did not remove and visually inspect the entire element. I detected no issues with the heater in this process (and would have replaced it if I had). This heater then fried spectacularly within a week of installation. I'd done a good and thorough bench test, made the potential risk very clear, implied no warranty, and given them a really good deal. The customer was really unhappy though, and in order to preserve the relationship with this local multi-location company I had to replace the heater at no charge. This sale quickly went from a very small profit to a substantial loss. Result? I no longer sell used espresso machines, and until I get a functioning crystal ball I probably won't.
There are several possible scenarios here. I won't run through them all, but here's some considerations:
The tech may have thoroughly tested the element with a meter, but not removed and visually inspected it, for the reasons I gave above. Testing with a meter is much faster and usually sufficient.
The tech may have removed and visibly inspected the element, but the cracks in the jacket may have been small enough to not be visible. Since the coil was probably fine, it would have good continuity and resistance and test as ok (especially if tested dry).
The element may have been thoroughly inspected and tested before the boiler was descaled with the element in place. A scale coat would provide some electrical insulation to a split element. Once the machine was descaled, that coil would be exposed and fail quickly.
The machine may have been handled roughly in shipping, damaging a marginally-functional element.
The machine may not have been installed and started up properly. Many elements fail when machines are powered up with an empty boiler - the elements get red-hot in the air, then are quenched with cold water once the boiler level rises. This is extremely stressful, especially for older elements, and one reason that machine warranties require professional installations.
Buying a used machine is a risk. Though your machine was still probably far better than what you would have gotten from someone else on Craigslist, that risk is still there. If the tech offers anything, great. If the machine didn't come with a warranty, that maybe should tell you something. You gambled and it didn't work out. I wouldn't necessarily fault the tech though.
Hope that helps. Good luck.
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Hmmm... better clarify:
"If the machine didn't come with a warranty" applies more with local sales. Even then, I would not sell a used machine with much of a warranty, even locally, because I can't predict what may happen with the components. Why should I gamble on parts who's future and longevity I can't control?
Bottom line? New machines come with good warranties because they probably won't break for a while. Used machines usually don't because they probably will.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Mike Bucknell on
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Most of that I already knew but I do appreciate you taking the time. What I really wanted to know from a service tech again is "have you ever seen a heating element corrode and rust all the way through like in the pictures in a matter of a week"? Is there ANY way possible that was a new heating element as they're telling me? I know what I think, but they're saying because I'm not a tech I just don't know (the science of "rust" apparently being different for techs than for the rest of us). Let's assume in answering that 1. the heating element was visually inspected and tested as I'm told it was and 2. it was under two weeks from installation to pulling the element out of the machine as is in the pictures.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Sabol on
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Brady really covered all the bases. Working with used espresso machines is frought with contingencies. The good news is that you might just need a new element. Depending on how much you paid for the machine you could still be ahead even when you factor in the new element. Lineas are one of the few machines worth rebuilding. I'd speak to the person you bought it from and see if they would be willing to cut you a deal on an element to make the situation right. If they sell a lot of machines they should be willing to help you out for the reasons Brady mentioned. A bad reputation can be hard to shake.
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We paid $5000 for the machine which was great, but it was supposed to be fully dismantled and refurbished, all bad parts replaced, and fully tested. When the steam stopped first day open we diagnosed the heating element was bad, he said "they just do that", and they shipped out a new heating element overnight to us. When the new element arrived we pulled this one out and found it in this condition. We immediately stopped payment on the check until we got resolution because they're saying that it was OUR fault and it was a perfectly working element. Looking at the pictures and all the information given above, is there any way they can NOT be lying to us, and it was a fully inspected working element, then burst and rust all the way through in 36 hours?
Note that we installed and started the machine correctly exactly according to manual, had problems getting milk to foam properly until the element was replaced, changed NOTHING else and the machine works and foams perfectly now.
Thanks for your expert opinions!
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Mike, in order to answer your question can you post a pic of the entire element and a pic of the base where the wires hook up to the element? Getting blow outs and cracks like that is not impossible if the water level in the steam boiler was running low enough where the element would get uncovered. Elements blow really fast when they are run dry.
The obvious answer to your question is the one you already think it is. In my opinion the bigger issue is how to get you up and running ASAP. And that would be to get a new element to you right away. If I were in your situation I'd be asking the company to help me out in resolving the situation and move forward rather than argue over whether the element was new or not. Now if they are unwilling to help resolve the situation then that is a different conversation.
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I just read your post above mine and it sounds like the company did everything they could. What are you trying to get out of the situation? A further reduction in price?
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Not at all, they shipped the part and machine is working great now. But they're wanting payment for the heating element which we feel fully was bad to begin with. If we owe them for it then by all means we will pay for it. But the way the whole situation went down it seems they gave us a bad part to start and we should not be liable.
PS: The tech had me go back and change the water level on the boiler tank yet told me "that shouldn't matter". It just seems they knew it was bad and are doing everything to cover it up and not have to eat it now.
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See if they'd be willing to sell you the element at their cost. Which should split the difference. I doubt they sent you something they knew would fail. This is something that could easily be an honest mistake and when dealing with used equipment that is a risk both parties undertake.
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Mike, I described several scenarios that could explain how that was a working element when it left. Yes, it is possible that they are just lying, but I find it easier to believe that they are not.
I'll say it again: just because it broke the first time you use it does not mean that they sold you a bad heating element... they sold you a heating element that was about to break. None of us can guarantee that something we sell won't break the first time its used. The best we can do is thoroughly inspect what we have in front of us.
This is a used machine in good condition. Despite the shop's best effort, things will continue to break on a somewhat regular basis. "They just do that". That's just how it works.
Did they charge full list for the element, or discount it? Full price of expedited shipping?
I also suspect that if they'd replaced that element before listing the machine, you would have paid for it in a higher price on the machine.
Again, hope that helps.
Dr. Mike Bucknell said:We paid $5000 for the machine which was great, but it was supposed to be fully dismantled and refurbished, all bad parts replaced, and fully tested. When the steam stopped first day open we diagnosed the heating element was bad, he said "they just do that", and they shipped out a new heating element overnight to us. When the new element arrived we pulled this one out and found it in this condition. We immediately stopped payment on the check until we got resolution because they're saying that it was OUR fault and it was a perfectly working element. Looking at the pictures and all the information given above, is there any way they can NOT be lying to us, and it was a fully inspected working element, then burst and rust all the way through in 36 hours?
Note that we installed and started the machine correctly exactly according to manual, had problems getting milk to foam properly until the element was replaced, changed NOTHING else and the machine works and foams perfectly now.
Thanks for your expert opinions!
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Permalink Reply by Eric Schaefer on
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A few thoughts here:
Are they claiming it was a NEW element, or that it was a tested element? Big difference. As the others have said, most people rebuilding machines (myself included) aren't going to replace parts that are working just fine, unless they're fast-wearing parts that get changed a lot anyway. Sounds to me like you may have gotten a used, but working just fine until you got it, element... which doesn't make them bad guys.
From the pics, it looks to me an awful lot like elements that got heated up before the steam boiler was full. Are you totally sure that the steam boiler was filled above the element before the element was turned on? If not, there's your problem.
As for the age of the rust, don't forget that corrosion (rust) behaves much differently in a pressurized environment at above-boiling temperatures. Any non-stainless steel left in a steam boiler is going to rust way faster than if it were just sitting out in some cool rain.
Also, in your pics I'm not seeing anything to make me think the elements "rusted through" per se. It looks more like the outer shell (usually stainless or inconel, not particularly likely to rust at all) blew out violently, after which only the inner element coil itself (which was never meant to touch water) rusted, possibly very quickly.
To sum up, mostly I should just say I agree with everything Brady and Mike already said. It sounds like the seller acted very quickly to make things right (overnight shipping, had you up and running again almost immediately) and it doesn't sound to me like the seller did anything wrong in the first place. I would hope that the seller gave you good pricing on the element and/or a discount on the shipping, but really more as a goodwill gesture than anything else.
...on the other hand, by stopping payment on a check, you've probably cost them extra money in banking fees if they had already deposited it (essentially a bad check as far as their bank is concerned), so even if they did charge full price for everything, you should probably just pay what you owe and be glad you've got a great machine now.
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