Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brady on March 24, 2013 at 4:42am

Not that I have any room to throw stones. Remember that guy who's website was down for 2 weeks before he noticed and then another 2 months before he bothered to do anything about it? At least the replacement forced me to update it a little.

That's kind of my point though. In our case, all a website needs to do is make us show up in a Google search. Everything else is just gravy.

Nicholas Dakas said:

I think he's making fun of my "website". Lol

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Permalink Reply by Scott on March 26, 2013 at 12:46pm

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned Thermoplan.  Or I missed it, sorry.  Yes Bunn (the North American Rep) is a train wreck to deal with, but the machines is superior in every way to Franke, Shearer and UNIC (of which I have no personal experience with their super autos).  

I would strongly suggest purchasing two or more espresso machines in the scenario you describe.  

Also, anyone here care to pony up a real world annual maintenance and service cost for Austin?  Based upon the usage figures in his post would $2K -$4K per machine be close?  Super Autos are expensive toys after all.  

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Permalink Reply by Brady on March 26, 2013 at 6:11pm

Good call, Scott. Service support for Thermoplan in Austin's area is definitely not as good as for Franke. Probably still better than for Schaerer's though, if I'm gonna put some cards on the table. There's just not enough units (except, well... you know) out there to warrant any sort of effort.

I'm not sure about annul maintenance costs. If I were to guess, I'd think $2k per machine sounds like the upper end of the range for an "average" (read 3-4 year old) Evolution. Assume 2-3 one-hour PM visits using trivial parts plus perhaps 2 more 1-hour emergency service calls to resolve non-major issues. His peak usage is high but having down days means his cycles will stay lower. $1k plus or minus feels like the right ballpark unless he's unlucky (motherboard, pump motor, etc) or decides to do something dumb with his machines. I don't send out the bills for Franke work, so this is straight-up guessing.

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Permalink Reply by Scott on March 26, 2013 at 11:13pm

From my experiences with service calls with both Franke and Schaerer vs Thermoplan;  most cases the thermoplan machine is malfunctioning or out of spec but still working - maybe 7 out of 10 times.  With Franke, nearly every service call the MACHINE IS DOWN and not functioning.  And it doesn't matter if it's a Sinfonia, Evolution, Ecolina, 2-step or the vending machine sans coin slot that McD's uses.  Or how frequently it's used for that matter.  Shaerer less so, but that might be due the increasing scarcity of Shaerer machines in the wild out here.  

Also, Franke machines fail quite frequently at start up.  Most often in the steam pressure control system.  So if you are only going to be using this thing a couple times a week - and leaving it off for the remainder of the week, that's fair number of "failure" opportunities.    

In Franke's defense, they are also the easiest to work with.  The area managers great to work with from a service companies perspective.  They are the only ones who will go out into the field to meet face to face with both costumers and field service.  And their call center tries really hard to resolve issues over the phone.        

 

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Permalink Reply by Brady on March 27, 2013 at 3:50am

Huh. That doesn't match my experience at all.

The most common call I make on any given Evolution 2-step is a PM visit. Boiler pressure control issues are nil for the first 5+ years (like any other espresso machine) unless the user does something dumb, in which case the odds of having an issue do rise. Most of the other issues I see on newer (2-4 year old) machines relate to neglect or abuse.

Perhaps its because I only work on Evolution 2-steps?

Not taking anything at all away from Thermoplan. Sounds like a nice machine that I wish we had more of in our market, but those first couple of buyers are gonna be guinea pigs.

Scott said:

From my experiences with service calls with both Franke and Schaerer vs Thermoplan;  most cases the thermoplan machine is malfunctioning or out of spec but still working - maybe 7 out of 10 times.  With Franke, nearly every service call the MACHINE IS DOWN and not functioning.  And it doesn't matter if it's a Sinfonia, Evolution, Ecolina, 2-step or the vending machine sans coin slot that McD's uses.  Or how frequently it's used for that matter.  Shaerer less so, but that might be due the increasing scarcity of Shaerer machines in the wild out here.  

Also, Franke machines fail quite frequently at start up.  Most often in the steam pressure control system.  So if you are only going to be using this thing a couple times a week - and leaving it off for the remainder of the week, that's fair number of "failure" opportunities.    

In Franke's defense, they are also the easiest to work with.  The area managers great to work with from a service companies perspective.  They are the only ones who will go out into the field to meet face to face with both costumers and field service.  And their call center tries really hard to resolve issues over the phone.        

 

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Permalink Reply by Sid Gauby on March 27, 2013 at 11:11am

While new machines sound great Austin I have another suggestion for you from personal experince. 

I was in a similar position in a church with everyone wanting their coffees at the same time. If you train your barista's to fix drinks in a catering style and then limit your options to one type of mocha and one or two flavors of latte's you can serve a lot of people in a short period of time. We would regularly serve 200 people their drinks in a 20 minute time frame with a three group espresso machine and 3 volunteers.

If you add another machine in another location in the building to spread out the rush and look at the work flow of your volunteers you might be surprised at what you can accomplish with what you have.

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Permalink Reply by Alexander Stephen Root on March 27, 2013 at 2:22pm

I've only ever worked on Schaerer and Thermoplan superautomatic machines, and I can say that a super is definitely what you'll need to keep your operation up to speed with your demand.

FRANKE - I've never had experience with Franke machines, but I know people who recommend them due to their ability to produce high quality beverages. This is, of course, assuming the machine itself is calibrated and maintained appropriately and consistently. The bean hoppers can be removed for cleaning, which is a great feature. The only complaint I've heard is that the Evolution model is a little slower than competition when it comes to output. There is a large chain called Caribou Coffee that mostly uses the Franke Evolution. If you're near one, stop it and try to check the machine "in action". The machines are tinier in footprint, so two of these could replace one traditional machine, potentially take up LESS space, and rock out more drinks. 

SCHAERER - I worked on the Ambiente PS for a combined total of two years. It's a work horse, and a powerful one at that! The machine is simple to operate, easy to clean, and widely serviceable since so many of them are installed across the globe. You cannot remove the bean hoppers for cleaning on this machine, which is my only complaint as I'm a maintenance-focused guy. I'd recommend against the newer models since I've been told about them being glitchy, but overall I'd say that this is probably the machine you're looking for as for as price and speed. I'd say get this one.

THERMOPLAN - This manufacturer used to be Starbucks-exclusive, but with the roll out of the new Mastrena (Starbucks' current espresso machine), the older model we used is now available through resellers. It goes by the name "Black & White" or CTS2, and it'll be a gamble if you find one. The price will be good, but it will be more difficult to find service techs and parts for the machine since Thermoplan doesn't seem to make this model anymore. There are techs out there that can fix this one, but they probably still work through Starbucks. That said, this machine is what let Starbucks make drinks fast enough and consistently enough to expand as fast as it did in the 90s and 00s. 

Again, just keep up with the cleaning and maintenance of the machine and you're probably golden. Problems arise with these machines quickly if you don't keep up with them.

Good luck, bud! Keep us posted.

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Permalink Reply by Austin Lee Decker on March 27, 2013 at 7:05pm

You guys know so much this is awesome!

Thermoplan

I am highly intrigued by Thermoplan now that I have done some research on them, especially the Black and white 3 CTS 2 step and their milk foamers too! The Mastrena looks so cool! I see on their website that the closest distributor is in Jersey called Imp Coffee. Anyone know much about them? I wish I knew more about thermoplan, though. Like do they own Nespresso? Does nespresso make a commercial machine? Not interested in nepresso just curious. 

Schaerer- I did not go with them because I can not find a close servicer to us in Kernersville, NC. No closer than Siler City with VP Coffee that is. 

UNIC- Not going to risk it, but I will say that they use all metal parts which could be a good thing or bad thing. I might try them out if the church ever gives me a lot of money to spend on espresso machines.

Franke- Got a refurb Franke evolution because of the servicer near me, he is awesome in like every way! Thanks to Nick Dakas! I have learned I can trust him, and I highly respect that, and that is something I want/admire most in a servicer. Btw thanks Bradly for getting me in touch. I think Nick may invite you to help train my staff too! Which, I would love to meet ou too as Nick speaks very highly of you. I really feel save with Franke, I mean really, not like Mcdonalds and Caribou just choose a machine by chance. We will see how it goes, and I will keep you guys posted on it.

Cimbali - I also got a refurb Cimbal M29 selection 3 group tall cup. I will be running both a 3 group and super, I think this will go well.

Thanks guys, Austin

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Permalink Reply by Brady on March 28, 2013 at 8:58am

Thermoplan is a fantastic machine concept, and sounds like it works well too. The problem is that the vast majority of their machines in the US (and all of them in our area) are in Starbucks. Since Starbucks in our market uses what is essentially their own in-house service company, the only option is to use a third-party tech like Nick or I. However, since there are NO non-Starbucks machines in our area, neither of us stock any parts for them. I've gotten a call or two from unlucky Black and White owners that bought them on ebay. There is literally nothing I can do for them, and very little Nick can do. They usually come off the bar and into the back room or back on ebay.

Superautos are different from traditionals in one big way from a service standpoint. Any good equipment tech can walk up to ANY oddball traditional espresso machine and fumble through a repair. It may take extra time, a little searching for parts, a return trip, and some improvisation, but at the end of the day your machine is probably working. Not so with supers - many of the parts are proprietary and you usually need a card, key, or access code in order to even begin troubleshooting any problems with the robot part. Without access to the manufacturer your machine is dead in the water.

Every market is different, and the guys that actually know what they are talking about know this. That's one reason it pays to do your research (like you've done) and take the things that sales guys or people in other markets say with a grain of salt. I think you made a smart choice.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Jackson on March 28, 2013 at 9:43am

I am glad you found a machine and I was glad to be along on the ride.

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Permalink Reply by Austin Lee Decker on March 28, 2013 at 10:01am

Glad to have your help too Mark, it is because of you I found all this valuable information.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Sabol on March 28, 2013 at 1:26pm

Sounds like you're on your way, Austin.  I think those folks will take good care of you.  You should also take the same approach with your other questions.  If your service support can work on it and keep it running it doesn't matter much what it is.  Keep it simple.

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