cappuccino issues :p
attended the Seattle Coffeefest for the the first time ever (loved it!) and learned A LOT.. but would like someone to set things straight about making a cappuccino because i had a semi-argument with my co-manager about what the "standard" procedure should be for making a capp (for training purposes). AAARGH! we were taught the wet & dry.. and i've had customers try the new (proper) way for making the wet capp as we were taught, and i've found that my customers love it. but my co-manager is insisting that his understanding is that there are 3 types of capps.. a "regular" way, and the wet & dry being the extremes. HEEEEELP! he's driving me crazy! i just want things to be simple, and not give customers THREE DIFFERENT OPTIONS!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on
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So much misinformation and contorted information about the classic cappuccino.
Tell me something.
Where is it written, or where did the notion that anything with a ratio of 3rds is a cappuccino? And beyond that, if you can get that far, where is the original source for the cappuccino being capable of being made to be 12oz(much less 20)?
It's neither. It's frothed milk and espresso not to exceed ~5.5-6oz. It's a recipe from Italy. If you order a cappuccino in Italy, do you get a drink of thirds? Is the foam dry? Is it wet? Is the amount of foam even really considered?
Let's consider the logic for a moment. 1 shot is equivalent to 1 cup of coffee. A "cup" in the US is 8oz. The rest of the world calls 6oz. a cup. What a coincidence.
I can imagine the thought process...
"I wonder what this would taste like if instead of making an americano with water, we make it with frothed milk instead... "
It's pretty clear what the Italian cappuccino is intended to be. It's also clear that most of us don't have a clue.
If you are serving a cappuccino over 6oz. in total volume, you are serving a latte and calling it a cappuccino. This is not to condescend anybody, to criticize or otherwise say anything negative. This is just my understanding after having read up on it quite a bit. (it was, and remains, my favorite drink)
A "wet" version means a bit less foam in the frothing. A "dry" version means a bit more foam in the frothing. In any case, a cappuccino is never more in volume, regardless of the milk/espresso ratio.
/confusion
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Permalink Reply by The Barista Formerly Known As JavaJ on
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Well said Jason. I often stay out of these posts, because they pop up so often on boards, especially ones that cater to the newly initiated. Often times, it is the same people who have so much passion for our industry, but are either being fed or regurgitating bad information. It is our responsibility to share what we know with them, and I commend you for continuing to do so, years after you yourself were a mere nub.
As someone who has spent three months in Italy drinking several capps a day, I can tell you there is no "rule of thirds" in Italy. Nonetheless, when someone describes a cappuccino as a drink of thirds, I often do not correct them, as they are at least on the right track. I am even guilty of using the term, as it is a convenient way of summarizing the drink. I usually just make them a cappuccino, the way I make them, which is the right way for me. If they like it and want to talk proportions I am more than happy to do so.
So where did this notion come from? I can tell you that the first time I had a cappuccino, which probably wasn't a "real" cappuccino, was sometime in 1992. I remember distinctly it was described as two shots of espresso with equal parts steamed milk and foam. I remember wondering if that was equal parts all around, or equal parts just the milk and foam? Especially as the drink was in a 10 oz cup? I think this original definition was quite common, and morphed into a equal parts all around out of confusion and simplicity.
The cappuccino, as everyone knows comes from Italy. So can we let the Italians define it? It turns out that they actually have. Italians love the bureaucratical, and the Italian Institute of Espresso (Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano) has defined a cappuccino as:
“traditional cappuccinos are made up of 25ml of espresso and 125ml of milk steam-whipped milk starting with cold milk (3-5°C) and brought to a temperature of about 55°C and then poured on Italian Certified Espresso in a cup of 150-160ml. The milk must be fresh bovine with a minimum of 3.2% proteins and 3.5% fat, and steam-whipped in a specific way.”
This is the definition of a cappuccino. It is interesting that in recent times, many Third Wave shops have co-opted the cappuccino and made it their own, sometimes with a dash of disdain for the Italian original. Most shops will only pull double capps, for example, because single baskets and split doubles produce inferior shots. Further complicating things, is the definition of a shot. I could talk all day about this, but to summarize, most shots pulled at most 3W shops are ristrettos, whether they call them that or not. If the original cappuccino is 25ml singles (a little less than one ounce), and I am only pulling 1.25-1.5 ounce DOUBLES, then how does that affect the proportions? I'm not even going to get into what latte art has done to the capp, as more and more people try to pour rosettas using very wet foam.
So that I can end this long winded post, let me just say this. Generally speaking I pull a double shot of espresso into a 5.5 oz cup. The parameters for my shot vary because we use many different blends as well as single origin coffees. On average, I am dosing 18g, tamping 45 Lbs, for a 27 second 1.35 oz double. I steam my milk to a finished heat of about 145 (a little hotter than some suggest), and pour it almost immediately, usually opting for a monks head or heart. However, I think most Italians would find my cappuccino a little strong. Also, I speak Italian. When I was in Italy, I had a devil of a time asking for a dry capp. The standard Italian cappuccino is wetter. The dry capp is NOT very Italian at all.
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Permalink Reply by Nuova Simonelli on
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What an interesting discussion. Our company is part of INEI and we conduct courses and certify people as Italian Espresso tasters. Notice the 55 celcius in their definition. Most Americans would find that milk temp too cold.
We have conducted INEI courses for some of our good clients in the US at their roastery. It is always interesting and valuable. We do not beleive INEI is the end all be all but rather the Italian standard bearer. It is useful to study what the Italian roasters go for in terms of flavor.
it is true the quality of the average cappuccino served in Italy has gone down in th last decade. There still are exceptional bars and roasters but they are harder to find.
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Permalink Reply by Mavin on
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hi Selina , it is good to give customers options as they might not know wat types of cappucinos are there.
after all, we are baristas and talking is another thing we do best.
i always let my customers try my favourite type of capp, which is.......
- 50% foam and 50% milk. but the foam is very wet, sometimes make customers wonder isit a latte at 1st.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Well put, J and J.
It seems like a real challenge to create something "authentic" in the world of coffee. I'm about to the point of thinking that authenticity in coffee is an illusion based on a generalization. So many variations in bean, roast, blend, preparation... the entire process is nothing but variables. Even with a precise recipe these variations will add up to create a cup that may be quite different than the generalized classic. Is that ok? Well, it kind of has to be, doesn't it.
This is not to say that I think the ideal of the "classic Italian cappuccino" isn't important. Just saying that maybe we should worry more about creating great coffee using "authentic" coffee as our guide?
We should definitely be careful with our vocabulary. As J said, its way too common for barista to think we know what the real deal is when in fact we don't. Been there, done that... still probably getting half of it wrong right now. (Maybe after I've spent 3 months in Italy drinking capps every day I'll start to have an idea?)
If you are not a progressive shop, you probably offer an Americanized (read bigger and fluffier) version of a cappuccino. We do. Like it or not, the mermaid beat most of us to the punch here and this definition probably isn't going anywhere for a while. If you do offer this, please familiarize yourself with what a "real" cappuccino looks, feels, and tastes like, so that you understand how yours differs. I'd hope that, all other things aside, a sip of your version tastes very much like a sip of the original.
I'm starting to appreciate the approach that some shops (including us) take: offer two cappuccinos, a mass-market one and a niche one. Lots of benefits here. Selina, I know I said earlier that simple is best, but this may be just the approach you are looking for.
Now go make great coffee. Unless you opened this morning, in which case go take a nap.
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Brady said:
What if I preemptively made a killer double cappuccino in honor of this thread before you gave the orders to do so? Does that mean I have/get to make another?Well put, J and J.
It seems like a real challenge to create something "authentic" in the world of coffee. I'm about to the point of thinking that authenticity in coffee is an illusion based on a generalization. So many variations in bean, roast, blend, preparation... the entire process is nothing but variables. Even with a precise recipe these variations will add up to create a cup that may be quite different than the generalized classic. Is that ok? Well, it kind of has to be, doesn't it.
This is not to say that I think the ideal of the "classic Italian cappuccino" isn't important. Just saying that maybe we should worry more about creating great coffee using "authentic" coffee as our guide?
We should definitely be more careful with our vocabulary. As J said, its way too common for barista to think we know what the real deal is when in fact we may not. Been there, done that... and I'm still probably getting half of it wrong right now. (Maybe after I've spent 3 months in Italy drinking capps every day I'll start to have an idea?)
If you are not a progressive shop, you probably offer an Americanized (read bigger and fluffier) version of a cappuccino. We do. Like it or not, the mermaid beat most of us to the punch here, so this definition probably isn't going anywhere for a while. If you do, please familiarize yourself with what a cappuccino should look, feel, and taste like though, so that you understand how yours differs from this standard. If you offer this drink, please don't tout its authenticity and Italian roots too much... your drink may be good but it is a regional adaptation. I'd also hope that a sip of your version tastes very much like a sip of the original.
To J's point, let's also be careful in claiming authenticity of drinks that deviate from this definition in other ways. A 5oz double-shot capp is delicious and closer to the spirit of the original, but isn't it a regional adaptation too?
I'm starting to appreciate the approach that some shops (including us) take: offer two cappuccinos, a mass-market one and a niche one. Lots of benefits here. Selina, I know I said earlier that simple is best, but this may be just the approach you are looking for.
Now go make great coffee. Or (if you opened this morning) go take a nap.
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Jason Haeger said:Brady said:
What if I preemptively made a killer double cappuccino in honor of this thread before you gave the orders to do so? Does that mean I have/get to make another?Now go make great coffee. Or (if you opened this morning) go take a nap.
YES!!! That or take a nap.
(Wished I'd edited better before posting. I almost always edit immediately after posting, hoping that nobody saw the original. BUSTED!)
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Brady said:
In that case, here's a single shot and a classic cappuccino. (one shot, frothed milk, in a 5.5oz. Italian cup)Jason Haeger said:Brady said:
What if I preemptively made a killer double cappuccino in honor of this thread before you gave the orders to do so? Does that mean I have/get to make another?Now go make great coffee. Or (if you opened this morning) go take a nap.
YES!!! That or take a nap.
(Wished I'd edited better before posting. I almost always edit immediately after posting, hoping that nobody saw the original. BUSTED!)
http://www.baristaexchange.com/photo/photo/show?id=1688216%3APhoto%...
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Beautiful... you made that decaf, right? (Heads to condiment bar to pour in half a jar of sugar BEFORE tasting.) Now where is that "evil" emoticon?
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Brady said:
No, it's not decaf. It's fully caffeinated. Just another chance to work with my competition blend, which is still in development.Beautiful... you made that decaf, right? (Heads to condiment bar to pour in half a jar of sugar BEFORE tasting.) Now where is that "evil" emoticon?
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Jason Haeger said:Brady said:
No, it's not decaf. It's fully caffeinated. Just another chance to work with my competition blend, which is still in development.Beautiful... you made that decaf, right? (Heads to condiment bar to pour in half a jar of sugar BEFORE tasting.) Now where is that "evil" emoticon?
So you needed to try it as a single in a 5.5oz capp anyway then? Looks nice.
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Brady said:
No, I split the double into a capp cup and a demitasse.Jason Haeger said:Brady said:
No, it's not decaf. It's fully caffeinated. Just another chance to work with my competition blend, which is still in development.Beautiful... you made that decaf, right? (Heads to condiment bar to pour in half a jar of sugar BEFORE tasting.) Now where is that "evil" emoticon?
So you needed to try it as a single in a 5.5oz capp anyway then? Looks nice.
I figured, this is a thread about cappuccini, and we chatted about the "classic", which would be a single capp. So I made a single capp. Also, they must be served as singles in competition, and I need to know how it tastes.
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