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Permalink Reply by Denise Smith on February 13, 2009 at 6:57am

I think it's a prime example of gluttony and excess. Businesses not caring enough about their customer's health only the mighty dollar of selling as much as they can.
America has supper sized everything. As a consumer I hate to eat out because everything is proportioned too big. Our shop will carry smarter choices and smaller sizes. As a consumer I'm all for reasonable sizes at honest prices. That is what I want to offer our customers.
FYI: We'll se if it works... we open Friday the 13th of March.

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Permalink Reply by Billy Kangas on February 13, 2009 at 7:22am

Thanks for the thought... does anyone know any specifics of what happens to milk steamed at that volume at a chemical level...

Does anyone have any experiences with 20oz drinks??

does anyone have any advice from a financial perspective?

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on February 13, 2009 at 7:30am

The purist and concerned consumer in me says NO to 20z.

But let the financials do the talking. If you sit down and calculate how much it actually costs you to produce the 20z latte versus how much you're charging, it's a lose-lose situation. You're getting hammered.

Over a year ago, we changed our menu structure and eliminated 20 and 16 ounce sizes. For us to offer the 16z latte, we would have to charge $6.25 to cover our costs.

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Permalink Reply by Billy Kangas on February 13, 2009 at 7:54am

how did you calculate that price?

Anyone else have an experiance... or know on a gastronomical level what's going on?

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Permalink Reply by Brady on February 13, 2009 at 10:18am

As far as I know there is no difference between properly textured and steamed milk done 5 oz at a time and 17 oz at a time. We serve 20oz drinks. They are ridiculous, but quality is fine. Use a bigger pitcher.

I don't like them because:
when milk-based, they are unhealthy
they are usually purchased big so they can be sipped over a long period of time - long past when it is good and tasty
it discourages slow savoring (usually).
they are too expensive - when things are a little rough, people will skip days or stop coming rather than downsize.

We offer them because our customers want them. And order them. And are used to getting them from the other places they bought coffee before coming to us. And we'd lose some of them if we quit offering them. And we need all of our customers right now.

Financially, every single one of your drinks should be priced so that you hit your own target markup. If you do this there is no financial problem. Where there is potential for a problem is that your most prolific competitor discounts their larges, so if you price correctly for your business your larges will be more expensive. I see nothing wrong with this for an existing business. Potentially problematic for a new business, as your large customers probably won't notice that the other prices are in line and will just assume that you are expensive.

My 2 cents.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on February 13, 2009 at 10:25am

Brady-

Our experiences eliminating 20z and 16z beverages have borne out quite a different scenario than your expectations. The elimination of 16/20 did not hurt business. Business improved. Customer perception of quality improved. Profitability improved. Morale improved.

In fact, since the elimination of those sizes, we've seen a steady increase in revenue.

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Permalink Reply by Brady on February 13, 2009 at 10:28am

Denise Smith said:

...Businesses not caring enough about their customer's health only the mighty dollar of selling as much as they can...
(snip)

Ouch. Really?

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Permalink Reply by Brady on February 13, 2009 at 11:11am

Jay Caragay said:

Brady-
Our experiences eliminating 20z and 16z beverages have borne out quite a different scenario than your expectations. The elimination of 16/20 did not hurt business. Business improved. Customer perception of quality improved. Profitability improved. Morale improved.
In fact, since the elimination of those sizes, we've seen a steady increase in revenue.

Hey Jay,

Thanks. Always good to hear real stories and results in a discussion like this.

You know, as I read your reply it seemed very familiar. I think we've had this conversation before. Online coffee communities = perpetual deja vu, no? Will try to store this and maybe remember the next time this topic comes up (either here or at the shop).

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on February 13, 2009 at 12:39pm

Billy-

We use a very simple foodservice metric where the cost of ingredients should be under 30% of the retail price.

Our ingredients cost more than others and are of the best quality we can source and, therefore, more expensive.

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Permalink Reply by Denise Smith on February 16, 2009 at 7:59pm

Yeah, I know guys I'm talking out of turn because I'm not open yet. But I was taught by some of the most awesome folks in the industry and I really took their lessons to heart so that with a lot of hard work and dedication, maybe someday The Celtic Cup Coffee House in little Tullahoma, TN will be a destination spot for all of you as well.
Until then I will keep giving it all I've got physically, spiritually and financially.

God Bless!

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Permalink Reply by Jason Dominy on February 17, 2009 at 7:47am

20 oz.=bad. The smaller, the better.

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Knapp on February 17, 2009 at 10:59am

Personally I'd say a big no to 20oz. drinks.

But in all actuality, I guess it depends on what the coffee shop is trying to be.

Where I work at, we are trying to connect the dots and be part of the movement educating customers of the intense nuances that are involved in coffee. We are truly striving to relay the the concept that so much is involved in the coffee chain, from soil-to-bean,harvest, processing, importing, storing roasting, preparing and so on. So we want to offer the idea that when someone enjoys a beverage from our shop it is more than a caffeine fix, or a value meal with a supersize option but rather a culinary prepared beverage that offers an experience and story with every sip.

So for this reason, we don't offer a 20oz or a 16oz. We are the professionals and we passionately feel that we can stand behind a the proportions of a 12oz oz. latte w/ a double shot in it. When you move to a 16oz, you either use the same amount of espresso and drown it in milk, or you have to split a shot and not maintain the quality of a double shot. Neither of these options were we comfortable offering. We decided there were standards we wanted to uphold. Like Capps are only 6oz, Espresso and Machiattos will only be served in house with a nice presentation. For us out there trying to take coffee to the next level. For us who see people spending $8 on a micro-brew, $15 on a cocktail and over a $100 on a bottle of wine and thinking why should this not be the case with quality coffee. We need to move away from basing our decisions off of how most coffee shops are in the US are doing things and base it off of the art of the coffee. Every drink we make ought to be a piece of art and it is our responsibility to treat it that way.

Now, if the particular shop wants to simply serve coffee, make money and give the customers what they want. Sure, go ahead I say.

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