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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on February 18, 2009 at 3:42pm

We did 20oz for a while, but we are now phasing it out. When customers ask why we tell them that we feel it doesn't promote our coffee it promotes our milk, and that's not where our focus is. They usually get it. If they don't and seem curious enough to want to hear more details we start telling them how in order for us to not go broke on 20oz they have to be in the $6.50+ range, that usually helps paint a picture. It isn't necessarily the number one reason why we don't offer it, but it sure is up there. So, we are down to two "American" sizes (12 and 16oz, both get a "double" pulled through a LM Triple basket), all the traditional drinks get the traditional sizes. We do actually offer one drink in a 30oz. It's "The Strutt Au Lait" (The Strutt=cafe name) featuring whole milk only, dark roast brewed through a press at 2.2g of coffee/oz of water, available in house only and it's served in a bowl with bread. Hows that for a glutton drink for you. :0)

-bry

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on February 18, 2009 at 3:48pm

Nice. Au francais.

Bryan Wray said:

We did 20oz for a while, but we are now phasing it out. When customers ask why we tell them that we feel it doesn't promote our coffee it promotes our milk, and that's not where our focus is. They usually get it. If they don't and seem curious enough to want to hear more details we start telling them how in order for us to not go broke on 20oz they have to be in the $6.50+ range, that usually helps paint a picture. It isn't necessarily the number one reason why we don't offer it, but it sure is up there. So, we are down to two "American" sizes (12 and 16oz, both get a "double" pulled through a LM Triple basket), all the traditional drinks get the traditional sizes. We do actually offer one drink in a 30oz. It's "The Strutt Au Lait" (The Strutt=cafe name) featuring whole milk only, dark roast brewed through a press at 2.2g of coffee/oz of water, available in house only and it's served in a bowl with bread. Hows that for a glutton drink for you. :0)

-bry

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Permalink Reply by John P on February 18, 2009 at 7:34pm

If you focus on the coffee you can charge as much for your 16 or possibly even your 12 as many of the average coffee shops charge for their 20's. A 20 ounce will usually cool too much before it's finished, and thus lessens the enjoyment of the coffee. Decisions should always be about the coffee first, and with that approach, the profit will follow. Profit first models aren't so lucky... ask Starbucks.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on February 18, 2009 at 8:59pm

Kathy Fadorsen said:

I think you guys are over the top.

Thank you.

And I certainly hope that the coffee and products we offer at our espresso bar are "over the top."

Our vision is not that shared by the average American coffeeshop. We're looking to push the boundaries. To be on the cutting edge of our craft. Our model is not to model our operations on that of major chains, but rather to challenge those notions and those ideas.

Fact of the matter is that there is room for all sorts of operators and operations.


Kathy Fadorsen said:

I have a upscale coffee shop in a small town in ohio, and we offer large coffee drinks espresso based and brewed. small 12 oz 2 shots. medium 16 oz 3 shots we also ask if they want the 4 th shot and the 20 oz gets 4 shots. Our profit margin is the same for all sizes. We also have coffee shops in the area offering 24 oz latte's. I would offer the 24 oz size if I thought it was worth stocking the cup. Large is my best seller. followed by medium and small comes in last. I feel we are in bussiness to give the customer what they want, not what I feel is good for them. I have enjoyed coffee my whole life, and have lived long enough to realize some elses trash is some ones elses treasure.

Like you, our "large" is also our best seller. However, our "large" is 12 ounces. When you come to The Spro, you have a choice: to try the product that we serve best or to visit one of our competitors. While we don't offer 20z beverages, a wide variety of flavors or blended drinks, we do offer what we feel is the best product we can offer - and we make no apologies about that.

We don't offer what we think is "good" for them, we offer what we believe: our vision of service, care and coffee.

That said, what I think is important as an operator is offering the product and experience you believe in - whatever that may be. If you feel that you're doing a great job offering a 20z drink and have no qualms about it, then more power to you.

What we have come to learn through our experiences is that by focusing on our product and narrowing that focus, it is paying dividends. It's true for us and is what we will continue to pursue. Others certainly may have different experiences and I hope they follow what they believe.

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Permalink Reply by Alun Evans on February 18, 2009 at 9:05pm

When we opened our first cafe we decided to stick to the Italian basics- 160ml and 180ml cups. (I think 180=6oz). We had tonnes of complaints..."I want a grande size like I get at starbucks..."etc. Over time we have become known for our quality of EBD's in a city where quality coffee in the cup is as rare as the Pope doing a pilgramage to Mecca! Now we have no complaints. Customers who want more (milk) will order second cups which, of course, is additional revenue. I personally would never go bigger than the cup size we use now. Its my opinion, and it did require some perserverance to keep the standard to where it stays today.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Gasaway on February 18, 2009 at 10:24pm

We eliminated out 20oz size. Our sizes use to be 12oz= 1 shot, 16oz=2, 20oz=3
It's now 8oz 12oz and 16oz

When customers ask we tell them the purpose was to enhance the espresso taste

The boss wants to do 20oz for Drip though. He has a point too. The flavor of drip won't be enhanced more if we changed to smaller sizes.

Personally i can't even imagine how someone can get that much coffee in them at once(unless it sits for awhile)

I can only drink small portions. Too much Coffee gives me gas...(ha)

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Permalink Reply by Greenway Barista on February 19, 2009 at 4:53am

I pull 21 grams of espresso (triple ristretto?) for a 12oz.
42 grams of espresso (6x ristretto?!?!!?!?) for a 16oz.
I couldn't pull just once for such a big cup, so when people insist on 16oz I do my best to at least let them have some sort of coffee flavor in their 2 serving sizes of milk they just ordered. I understand the ratios aren't equal but it is the only way a 16oz. beverage could possibly have a coffee flavoring to the milk.

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Permalink Reply by courtney marie on February 19, 2009 at 8:45am

Totally hit the spot.

Ryan Knapp said:

Personally I'd say a big no to 20oz. drinks.

But in all actuality, I guess it depends on what the coffee shop is trying to be.

Where I work at, we are trying to connect the dots and be part of the movement educating customers of the intense nuances that are involved in coffee. We are truly striving to relay the the concept that so much is involved in the coffee chain, from soil-to-bean,harvest, processing, importing, storing roasting, preparing and so on. So we want to offer the idea that when someone enjoys a beverage from our shop it is more than a caffeine fix, or a value meal with a supersize option but rather a culinary prepared beverage that offers an experience and story with every sip.

So for this reason, we don't offer a 20oz or a 16oz. We are the professionals and we passionately feel that we can stand behind a the proportions of a 12oz oz. latte w/ a double shot in it. When you move to a 16oz, you either use the same amount of espresso and drown it in milk, or you have to split a shot and not maintain the quality of a double shot. Neither of these options were we comfortable offering. We decided there were standards we wanted to uphold. Like Capps are only 6oz, Espresso and Machiattos will only be served in house with a nice presentation. For us out there trying to take coffee to the next level. For us who see people spending $8 on a micro-brew, $15 on a cocktail and over a $100 on a bottle of wine and thinking why should this not be the case with quality coffee. We need to move away from basing our decisions off of how most coffee shops are in the US are doing things and base it off of the art of the coffee. Every drink we make ought to be a piece of art and it is our responsibility to treat it that way.

Now, if the particular shop wants to simply serve coffee, make money and give the customers what they want. Sure, go ahead I say.

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Malcolm on February 19, 2009 at 10:51am

touche good sir....touche

Jason Haeger said:

Italy loves bureacracy, and as it turns out, they have legislation about what is legally classified as a cappuccino. The volume converts to ~5.5oz.

I really wish I could find this stuff for times when I need to reference it. It exists. (waits for JavaJ to come in with a link to said law)

Not to mention, how many Italian cappuccino cups do you know of that exceed 6oz. total volume? Just saying.

Brandon Malcolm said:

how 5.5? just curious. i don't want to get into the 20 oz drink debate I think they suck

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on February 19, 2009 at 11:54am

Neither. "We don't offer a 20oz cappuccino, because the Italians do not recognize such a drink, but we can make you an extra foamy 20oz. latte."

All with a smile.

Rocket said:

I cringe whenever someone orders a 20oz cappuchino. obviously they dont know anything about coffee. I make them a skinny latte with extra foam bc I know this is what their asking for. Am I an asshole for doing that? letting them think this is a cap, or would it be bad to tell them their retarded(in a nice way, of course)

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Permalink Reply by Selina on February 19, 2009 at 9:41pm

we recently made BIG changes at our cafe.. among those changes were getting rid of our 16/20 oz espresso-based drinks (we only serve 8 and 12), and we got rid of our automatic coffee brewer and only have a pour over station. we are a cafe -- we also practically cut our food menu in HALF. we were anticipating a lot of complaints, but in the end.. people love the coffee we make and everything we serve. there are 2 starbucks' and 1 coffee bean in our area, all a block away.. but people have been coming to us. it's tough to take on the responsibility of educating the customer.. we try, but in the end, it also comes down to overall quality in the cup. they taste the difference, and they see the efforts we make to serve them a fresh cup each time (75% of our customers have never seen coffee made through a pour over station before)

soo... this may not really answer the question, but i just wanted to share our experience -- i thought getting rid of the 20 oz would turn away half our customers.. but it actually brought in more. :)

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on February 19, 2009 at 9:44pm

Love it! Thanks for sharing.

Pourover stations are far more intricate than most people who use them realize. It's a learning process, no different than espresso.

Selina said:

we recently made BIG changes at our cafe.. among those changes were getting rid of our 16/20 oz espresso-based drinks (we only serve 8 and 12), and we got rid of our automatic coffee brewer and only have a pour over station. we are a cafe -- we also practically cut our food menu in HALF. we were anticipating a lot of complaints, but in the end.. people love the coffee we make and everything we serve. there are 2 starbucks' and 1 coffee bean in our area, all a block away.. but people have been coming to us. it's tough to take on the responsibility of educating the customer.. we try, but in the end, it also comes down to overall quality in the cup. they taste the difference, and they see the efforts we make to serve them a fresh cup each time (75% of our customers have never seen coffee made through a pour over station before)

soo... this may not really answer the question, but i just wanted to share our experience -- i thought getting rid of the 20 oz would turn away half our customers.. but it actually brought in more. :)

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