Burr Wear
There has been a lot of threads about problem shots recently and burr wear has been coming up over and over. It raised a couple of questions in my head:
1) How often should you replace your burrs. I have always been told 800 lbs or when you start noticing quality decline. I have always noticed quality decline almost exactly at 800 lbs, although I normally don't figure it out until 850/900. I normally just think it's something I'm doing wrong. Anyway... what about you? How often? We're right around 8lbs of espresso/day, so for us this means replacing the burrs every 3-4 months depending on fluctuations.
2) Do conical burrs wear differently than flat? It seems like they would probably wear slower, but I can't really think of a reason why they would, just seems like they would. Maybe because there is more surface area? They turn slower? Any ideas?
3) How do you figure out how much coffee you run through? I blend all of our coffee on site and have a spreadsheet set up for how much of which ingredient went into each batch, and then the total amount for the batch and what the date is. Someone come up with an easier solution? Just guess?
-bry
1) How often should you replace your burrs. I have always been told 800 lbs or when you start noticing quality decline. I have always noticed quality decline almost exactly at 800 lbs, although I normally don't figure it out until 850/900. I normally just think it's something I'm doing wrong. Anyway... what about you? How often? We're right around 8lbs of espresso/day, so for us this means replacing the burrs every 3-4 months depending on fluctuations.
2) Do conical burrs wear differently than flat? It seems like they would probably wear slower, but I can't really think of a reason why they would, just seems like they would. Maybe because there is more surface area? They turn slower? Any ideas?
3) How do you figure out how much coffee you run through? I blend all of our coffee on site and have a spreadsheet set up for how much of which ingredient went into each batch, and then the total amount for the batch and what the date is. Someone come up with an easier solution? Just guess?
-bry
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fraser Jamieson on
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OK, following along from the other thread: I'm going to throw out a figure of about 8 pounds per day. And yes, we are using a conical grinder. The unit we've got is an Azkoyen, which may not be well liked, by many, but I've personally gotten to enjoy running it. It's a joy to use; but, it has to be cleaned out pretty often.
Anyway, where I'm working, I've sort of got my hands tied. I'd like to get my own portafilter, but, who knows if they are even keeping the espresso machine for much more than another year. Without having a naked filter, I'm going by visual clues in the cup, and most importantly, by input from a few select customers who really know their coffee.
Let me correct something I said before: I don't think many manufacturers claim 10,000 pound life spans, but I've spoken to a number of technicians who do make such claims.
Anyway, I'm all ears and looking for input to pass on to the owner. Hey, he's a great person but he's not wanting to spend money unless necessarly.
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on
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You should be fine getting a naked PF for the machine. Almost any commercially used (well I should say the vast majority) machine is going to be a 58mm PF and should be pretty interchangeable from machine to machine.
I had never seen an Azkoyen, although I had heard of them, so I looked them up. Does the machine automatically grind the next shot after you grind yours or were the videos I was watching just have sound lag. If it automatically grinds, how does it keep from getting stale (or does it not...)? Or do they make semi-auto versions and the one I saw was auto?
-bry
Fraser Jamieson said:OK, following along from the other thread: I'm going to throw out a figure of about 8 pounds per day. And yes, we are using a conical grinder. The unit we've got is an Azkoyen, which may not be well liked, by many, but I've personally gotten to enjoy running it. It's a joy to use; but, it has to be cleaned out pretty often.
Anyway, where I'm working, I've sort of got my hands tied. I'd like to get my own portafilter, but, who knows if they are even keeping the espresso machine for much more than another year. Without having a naked filter, I'm going by visual clues in the cup, and most importantly, by input from a few select customers who really know their coffee.
Let me correct something I said before: I don't think many manufacturers claim 10,000 pound life spans, but I've spoken to a number of technicians who do make such claims.
Anyway, I'm all ears and looking for input to pass on to the owner. Hey, he's a great person but he's not wanting to spend money unless necessarly.
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Permalink Reply by Chris DeMarse on
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the grupo azkoyen does pregrind, which lends itself to staling. They are interesting grinders. Anyhow, i think the amount of coffee you can use on a burr set is dependent on the burr set and its quality. I have heard that titanium coated sets and the mahlkonig burrs can go well over 2,000 lbs. I believe that conical sets last a bit longer than 1000 (more like 1400). I suppose they really only last as long as is acceptable until you notice degrading grind quality and have the technical skill and knowledge enough to know that there hasn't been a lapse in how you are preparing shots.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Greenfield on
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The Azkoyen Capriccio can either pre-grind after dispensing the previous dose, or can be switched to grind on demand. They do have a tendency of clogging if not cleaned regularly. The company attempted to fix the problem a year or two ago with a new chip which allows you to open the grind chambers from the bottom and clean them with a brush. It seems to help if you are willing to put in the effort. The only problem I ever had was the clogging, which seems to be resolved.
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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on
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No question different burr sets have different quality grind life expectancies. But it's not as simple as flat versus conical. Size matters! For instance while Mazzer Major burrs do IMO have about a 800# good grind life Mazzer Super Jolly burrs good for about half that and a Mazzer Mini about half a SJ. Which of course makes sense because smaller burrs work harder (grind longer) to grind same amount for a shot. How do you tell the burrs need replacing other than degraded shots? After cleaning the grinder feel the burrs, if they don't feel like they could cut your finger they need replacing. Waiting until noticing degraded shots usually means the burrs are well past needing replacing since shot degradation is gradual, not a sudden event.
Can't personally speak to burr life of big concicals like the Robur versus flat burrs 'cuz currently running Majors (primaries) and SJ's (decaf, SO etc.)
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Hey, sorry for the delay in getting back in here; we had twisters and power outages today. Not fun.
Anyway, yes, the Azkoyen can either be used in PreGrind or Instant mode. Under my bad temper commands to fellow staffers (hey, I'm an old fart) it is now only used in Instant mode. Used in that manner, I'm very happy with the machine's performance. When the lazy girls, who have since quit because they don't like me, kept putting it in PreGrind mode, we were faced with not only clumping and short doses, but with total blockage of the vertical tubes. However, I put half the blame for that on the oily coffee we use. Myself, I like our coffee for home use, where I make it in a Bodum, but it's not what I'd personally select for expresso extraction. Anyway, long story short, if the grinder is "flushed out" with a light roast coffee, the tubes will stay perfectly clean.
Does anyone know if GrindX dulls burrs faster than coffee does?
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Oh, and our VFA Expres is just...that much...less than 58 mm. Thank you Reg Barber for custom cuts!
Fraser Jamieson said:Hey, sorry for the delay in getting back in here; we had twisters and power outages today. Not fun.
Anyway, yes, the Azkoyen can either be used in PreGrind or Instant mode. Under my bad temper commands to fellow staffers (hey, I'm an old fart) it is now only used in Instant mode. Used in that manner, I'm very happy with the machine's performance. When the lazy girls, who have since quit because they don't like me, kept putting it in PreGrind mode, we were faced with not only clumping and short doses, but with total blockage of the vertical tubes. However, I put half the blame for that on the oily coffee we use. Myself, I like our coffee for home use, where I make it in a Bodum, but it's not what I'd personally select for expresso extraction. Anyway, long story short, if the grinder is "flushed out" with a light roast coffee, the tubes will stay perfectly clean.
Does anyone know if GrindX dulls burrs faster than coffee does?
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GrindX? Are you referring to Grindz from Urnex?
And no it doesn't wear burrs, it cleans them. You can use rice for the same purpose though and save yourself a lot of money.
Is this what you are referring to or am I missing something in my espresso lingo?
-bry
Fraser Jamieson said:Hey, sorry for the delay in getting back in here; we had twisters and power outages today. Not fun.
Anyway, yes, the Azkoyen can either be used in PreGrind or Instant mode. Under my bad temper commands to fellow staffers (hey, I'm an old fart) it is now only used in Instant mode. Used in that manner, I'm very happy with the machine's performance. When the lazy girls, who have since quit because they don't like me, kept putting it in PreGrind mode, we were faced with not only clumping and short doses, but with total blockage of the vertical tubes. However, I put half the blame for that on the oily coffee we use. Myself, I like our coffee for home use, where I make it in a Bodum, but it's not what I'd personally select for expresso extraction. Anyway, long story short, if the grinder is "flushed out" with a light roast coffee, the tubes will stay perfectly clean.
Does anyone know if GrindX dulls burrs faster than coffee does?
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Permalink Reply by N. Freeman on
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Using a K10 WBC the Compak manual recommends replacing their conical models at 1500Kg or 3300 Lb of coffee. Their K-6 and K-8 models they recommend 300 Kg or 660 Lb of coffee grinding.
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Thanks Bryan, and yes, I was talking about the stuff from Urnex; here in Canada, it's marketed with an X in the name, (unlike my use of an X in the word espresso in my post above, like duh) possibly for trademark reasons; someone else may have a better answer to that, but that's what I've been told. No matter, I know it's great for cleaning, but I wasn't sure if it was the same as coffee, as a wear factor.
Anyway, I took a look into the Ditting site and checked out their claims: For their espresso grinder, they say 2,000 pounds. For other grinders they claim 10,000 to 35,000 pounds which sounds right to me given the size of the burrs.
But hey, one bag of poor quality coffee with stones in it, and those figures go right out the window. If you hear the occasional "ca-chung" while making espresso, you'd be best to change brands. That doesn't happen often, but it isn't unheard of.
N. Freeman said:Using a K10 WBC the Compak manual recommends replacing their conical models at 1500Kg or 3300 Lb of coffee. Their K-6 and K-8 models they recommend 300 Kg or 660 Lb of coffee grinding.
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Fraser,
You bring up a good point referring to stones in the coffee. I bought five pounds of coffee from a roaster in South Florida once, only once. After some small stones went through the grinder and before I could stop it, the burrs were ruined. I found two more stones in the hopper that were not ground, one the size of my little finger nail. With quality roasters that has never been an issue and I now spend more for coffee and don't worry about stones any more.
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N. Freeman said:Fraser,
You bring up a good point referring to stones in the coffee. I bought five pounds of coffee from a roaster in South Florida once, only once. After some small stones went through the grinder and before I could stop it, the burrs were ruined. I found two more stones in the hopper that were not ground, one the size of my little finger nail. With quality roasters that has never been an issue and I now spend more for coffee and don't worry about stones any more.
When things like this happen, make sure you contact the roaster and tell them what happened. You could probably even try to get new burrs out of them.
-bry
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