And your Recommendation would be....
In attempting to sift through the possible choices for an espresso machine for my shop, I have realized that all the features ad infinitum are starting to confuse me. So I thought I would conduct a simple question-and-answer post. Please keep your comments in the order of the questions, but feel free to clarify your thoughts if necessary.
Taking into account that I will be getting a 2-group, semi-auto, please answer the following:
1. What features do you consider essential in a commercial espresso machine?
2. What features are nice to have but not necessary?
3. What do I want to avoid in an espresso machine?
4. What espresso machine would you choose for your startup shop?
Taking into account that I will be getting a 2-group, semi-auto, please answer the following:
1. What features do you consider essential in a commercial espresso machine?
2. What features are nice to have but not necessary?
3. What do I want to avoid in an espresso machine?
4. What espresso machine would you choose for your startup shop?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Espresso Rescue said:OK no one has put in a good word for super automatic machines yet, which I find very surprising. If you are trying to get people accustomed to great coffee, super auto is the obvious choice.
I'm not sure why you find this surprising. This is, after all, Barista Exchange... and the superauto is the robotic arch-enemy of baristadom. It is a tool for owners and operators, not baristas.
That aside, I am curious about the idea that superauto is the best choice for producing great coffee. Adequate in some situations? Perhaps. Producing great espresso? Not that I've seen.
Don't get me wrong... they've made some great improvements in superautos. They are certainly an appropriate choice in some situations... but not a quality-oriented coffee shop.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Yates on
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Brady is being nice. We have some rabid, quality-conscious, adjusting-the-pressure-profile, Type A baristas who could, and likely would, textually eviscerate you for suggesting super-autos. Be careful around them. And if you have a thing against single origin espresso, you might steer clear of Bry.... j/k bry!
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Permalink Reply by Espresso Rescue on
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I'd like to know what experiences you are drawing from in your evaluation of super autos? We repair many from the bitty Starbucks Barista machines up to the Melitta machines and everything in between. And you are right, most produce a tainted brew. Why would this be? Think about the food path. If it's touching plastic it is most likely being tainted by past drinks and coating/staining the plastic to create future tainting. The starbucks machines (and I mean the home machines that they sell, not what they use in their stores) are completely plastic. The Egro, the Jura, the Schaerer, and Saeco are for the most part plastic. The Verissimo 701 and 801, the higher end Franke machines and the Melitta machines are for the most part stainless steel. Pretty much down to the spout. Do some real taste testing on some real super autos and I think you will find quality.
I know I am standing up for he-who-shall-not-be-named, Mr Super Auto, on the largest online community for professional baristas but the only way the rest of society will get onboard with espresso is if it fits their life. Everyone on here wants as many people as possible to share the magic of Specialty Coffee at its finest but, oh yeah, you have to live in a place that can support it economically (like not most of Middle America), you have to have time to wait for someone to make something that could take a third of the time, and you have to give pretty advanced training to your staff if you plan to serve it or provide it in your business.
I'm not saying "down with traditional", I'm saying there is a time and a place and no one should be excluded.
What does the barista do to create that "magic", "soul", "love" that makes the espresso superior? The super auto I'm talking about (the Melitta C5FF) begins with a Mahlkonig Grinder. The burrs set themselves based on humidity and temp readings. It's dosed into a chamber much the same size as a Spaziale. A stainless steel piston applies thirty pounds of pressure much like an Espro Clicker Tamp. The extraction is through a micro screen with probably 100 times the holes as a traditional grouphead screen (45,150 holes to be exact), a much finer extraction. The water comes from a brew boiler that is PID controlled. The steam is coming from a steam boiler that is PID controlled.
So where was the magic supposed to be added?
Another suggestion for you is to make sure you are having GOOD coffee out of the superautomatic, this is one of the remaining factors that the Super Auto cannot control.
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Permalink Reply by Jesse Bladyka on
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I would like to know where I can get "good coffee" out of one of these superautos. This sounds like a really interesting machine and I'd love to spend a day with one. I have very little experience with super-autos, simply because I love and believe in the human element of service and hand made goods, whether it is bakery, dinner, or coffee, I want slow food. Anyway, are there any of these machines in service in the Rocky Mountain region? Any independents that might allow a bloke to come play with their fancy machine? I'm going against all of my preconceptions here and trying hard not to knock it until I try it.
Espresso Rescue said:I'd like to know what experiences you are drawing from in your evaluation of super autos? We repair many from the bitty Starbucks Barista machines up to the Melitta machines and everything in between. And you are right, most produce a tainted brew. Why would this be? Think about the food path. If it's touching plastic it is most likely being tainted by past drinks and coating/staining the plastic to create future tainting. The starbucks machines (and I mean the home machines that they sell, not what they use in their stores) are completely plastic. The Egro, the Jura, the Schaerer, and Saeco are for the most part plastic. The Verissimo 701 and 801, the higher end Franke machines and the Melitta machines are for the most part stainless steel. Pretty much down to the spout. Do some real taste testing on some real super autos and I think you will find quality.
I know I am standing up for he-who-shall-not-be-named, Mr Super Auto, on the largest online community for professional baristas but the only way the rest of society will get onboard with espresso is if it fits their life. Everyone on here wants as many people as possible to share the magic of Specialty Coffee at its finest but, oh yeah, you have to live in a place that can support it economically (like not most of Middle America), you have to have time to wait for someone to make something that could take a third of the time, and you have to give pretty advanced training to your staff if you plan to serve it or provide it in your business.
I'm not saying "down with traditional", I'm saying there is a time and a place and no one should be excluded.
What does the barista do to create that "magic", "soul", "love" that makes the espresso superior? The super auto I'm talking about (the Melitta C5FF) begins with a Mahlkonig Grinder. The burrs set themselves based on humidity and temp readings. It's dosed into a chamber much the same size as a Spaziale. A stainless steel piston applies thirty pounds of pressure much like an Espro Clicker Tamp. The extraction is through a micro screen with probably 100 times the holes as a traditional grouphead screen (45,150 holes to be exact), a much finer extraction. The water comes from a brew boiler that is PID controlled. The steam is coming from a steam boiler that is PID controlled.
So where was the magic supposed to be added?
Another suggestion for you is to make sure you are having GOOD coffee out of the superautomatic, this is one of the remaining factors that the Super Auto cannot control.
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I get your point, up to a point. Just as an illustration, consider a fine sports car, possessing fabulous handling, gobs of horsepower, torque, leather interior, and a killer sound system. Would you be satisfied driving it if it were supplied with an automatic transmission? I wouldn't! I would want to DRIVE that car, not just steer it! Give me a manual transmission and some mountain highways! Upshifting, downshifting, popping the clutch just a bit, and feeling her get just a little sideways before she grabs and tears down the highway... maybe you get my point. Most, if not all, of the baristas here, won't argue that a superauto won't produce a consistent shot, but it robs them of the skill, experience, artistry, and flair that has been so hard-earned. They just want to DRIVE, not just point that espresso machine in the right direction. Perhaps, as some have stated, it is time for the "Specialty Coffee" industry to diverge, allowing us drivers to call ourselves "Artisan Coffee".
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Dude, I almost used that transmission analogy in my previous post... great minds drive sticks
Paul Yates said:I get your point, up to a point. Just as an illustration, consider a fine sports car, possessing fabulous handling, gobs of horsepower, torque, leather interior, and a killer sound system. Would you be satisfied driving it if it were supplied with an automatic transmission? I wouldn't! I would want to DRIVE that car, not just steer it! Give me a manual transmission and some mountain highways! Upshifting, downshifting, popping the clutch just a bit, and feeling her get just a little sideways before she grabs and tears down the highway... maybe you get my point. Most, if not all, of the baristas here, won't argue that a superauto won't produce a consistent shot, but it robs them of the skill, experience, artistry, and flair that has been so hard-earned. They just want to DRIVE, not just point that espresso machine in the right direction. Perhaps, as some have stated, it is time for the "Specialty Coffee" industry to diverge, allowing us drivers to call ourselves "Artisan Coffee".
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Yeah Jesse! Thanks for humoring me, not writing me off or threatening me with textual ass-kickings (am I not part of the "WE" here Paul? Wait, my account is still active right? Oh phew). I will find out about possibilities for you to play around with a Melitta that are in the Rocky Mountain area of the country and report back. Thanks for being open to change and not perpetuating the rest of the world's view of baristas as the exclusive, untouchable popular kids in school.
Jesse Bladyka said:I would like to know where I can get "good coffee" out of one of these superautos. This sounds like a really interesting machine and I'd love to spend a day with one. I have very little experience with super-autos, simply because I love and believe in the human element of service and hand made goods, whether it is bakery, dinner, or coffee, I want slow food. Anyway, are there any of these machines in service in the Rocky Mountain region? Any independents that might allow a bloke to come play with their fancy machine? I'm going against all of my preconceptions here and trying hard not to knock it until I try it.
Espresso Rescue said:I'd like to know what experiences you are drawing from in your evaluation of super autos? We repair many from the bitty Starbucks Barista machines up to the Melitta machines and everything in between. And you are right, most produce a tainted brew. Why would this be? Think about the food path. If it's touching plastic it is most likely being tainted by past drinks and coating/staining the plastic to create future tainting. The starbucks machines (and I mean the home machines that they sell, not what they use in their stores) are completely plastic. The Egro, the Jura, the Schaerer, and Saeco are for the most part plastic. The Verissimo 701 and 801, the higher end Franke machines and the Melitta machines are for the most part stainless steel. Pretty much down to the spout. Do some real taste testing on some real super autos and I think you will find quality.
I know I am standing up for he-who-shall-not-be-named, Mr Super Auto, on the largest online community for professional baristas but the only way the rest of society will get onboard with espresso is if it fits their life. Everyone on here wants as many people as possible to share the magic of Specialty Coffee at its finest but, oh yeah, you have to live in a place that can support it economically (like not most of Middle America), you have to have time to wait for someone to make something that could take a third of the time, and you have to give pretty advanced training to your staff if you plan to serve it or provide it in your business.
I'm not saying "down with traditional", I'm saying there is a time and a place and no one should be excluded.
What does the barista do to create that "magic", "soul", "love" that makes the espresso superior? The super auto I'm talking about (the Melitta C5FF) begins with a Mahlkonig Grinder. The burrs set themselves based on humidity and temp readings. It's dosed into a chamber much the same size as a Spaziale. A stainless steel piston applies thirty pounds of pressure much like an Espro Clicker Tamp. The extraction is through a micro screen with probably 100 times the holes as a traditional grouphead screen (45,150 holes to be exact), a much finer extraction. The water comes from a brew boiler that is PID controlled. The steam is coming from a steam boiler that is PID controlled.
So where was the magic supposed to be added?
Another suggestion for you is to make sure you are having GOOD coffee out of the superautomatic, this is one of the remaining factors that the Super Auto cannot control.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on
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Hmmm, considering that Paul (the original poster) noted "semi-auto" espresso machines, that eliminated the super-autos from my response.
There certainly are many important reasons to proffer a super-auto. Ease, convenience and speed are at the top of the list. Great quality is certainly not one of them. And while I've never had extensive experience with one, I am convinced that it should be possible to produce something tasty from a super-auto.
The question to ask yourself is: "what vision of coffee do I have and that I want to deliver?" Once you've made that decision, the choices become more readily apparent. For myself, our focus is on our customers and providing them with extreme quality product. We favor hand-made, locally-sourced and top-quality methods. Naturally, this leads us to the machines I outlined above.
For most operators who are in the mainstream, I don't know if I would recommend the same machines. I wouldn't recommend them because they probably do not have the same level of commitment to product as many here on this forum, and certainly not the commitment that me (and my company) pursues. For us (my company), a super-auto is a compromise machine. A compromise for speed and for lowering our training bar and, therefore, quality. It is not a compromise we are willing to make.
But it is a compromise many operators are, have and will make.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Williamson on
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Very diplomatically put. You too, Brady. It's the overall feeling you get when you receive your handcrafted and delicious beverage that is simply irreplaceable and is absent in the world of super-autos. Apples and oranges, really.
Jay Caragay said:Hmmm, considering that Paul (the original poster) noted "semi-auto" espresso machines, that eliminated the super-autos from my response.
There certainly are many important reasons to proffer a super-auto. Ease, convenience and speed are at the top of the list. Great quality is certainly not one of them. And while I've never had extensive experience with one, I am convinced that it should be possible to produce something tasty from a super-auto.
The question to ask yourself is: "what vision of coffee do I have and that I want to deliver?" Once you've made that decision, the choices become more readily apparent. For myself, our focus is on our customers and providing them with extreme quality product. We favor hand-made, locally-sourced and top-quality methods. Naturally, this leads us to the machines I outlined above.
For most operators who are in the mainstream, I don't know if I would recommend the same machines. I wouldn't recommend them because they probably do not have the same level of commitment to product as many here on this forum, and certainly not the commitment that me (and my company) pursues. For us (my company), a super-auto is a compromise machine. A compromise for speed and for lowering our training bar and, therefore, quality. It is not a compromise we are willing to make.
But it is a compromise many operators are, have and will make.
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It's a good thing I didn't post any of this in the "Why we are on Barista Exchange" discussion. I posted it as a response to someone looking for suggestions on how to serve great coffee in their community. A community, mind you, that has a novice pallet. Like I said first off, if you are trying to create a culture around coffee in your town Paul then I will shut up right now. My response only applies if you are trying to get people to like coffee to begin with (a seemingly wise first step). You analogy works if you are picking a machine for yourself at home. But you are becoming a business owner, consider what kind of car the community wants you to drive them in. It sounds like you are totally dazzled by the industry which is great, just don't get in over your head and think like a business person, not just a coffee artist. You can always upgrade later once you have mastered the other stuff.
Paul Yates said:I get your point, up to a point. Just as an illustration, consider a fine sports car, possessing fabulous handling, gobs of horsepower, torque, leather interior, and a killer sound system. Would you be satisfied driving it if it were supplied with an automatic transmission? I wouldn't! I would want to DRIVE that car, not just steer it! Give me a manual transmission and some mountain highways! Upshifting, downshifting, popping the clutch just a bit, and feeling her get just a little sideways before she grabs and tears down the highway... maybe you get my point. Most, if not all, of the baristas here, won't argue that a superauto won't produce a consistent shot, but it robs them of the skill, experience, artistry, and flair that has been so hard-earned. They just want to DRIVE, not just point that espresso machine in the right direction. Perhaps, as some have stated, it is time for the "Specialty Coffee" industry to diverge, allowing us drivers to call ourselves "Artisan Coffee".
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Isn't the Dalla Corte and PID'd Marzocco halfway there? Just because a few steps in the process are taken out does that make the barista an automatron? How far does a machine have to be "tricked out" before it is not artisan? I'm trying to see where the line is. The general public is pretty accepting of advances in technology and would enjoy a morning conversation with the preparer of their drink regardless of how they are preparing it. That's where the magic is and that's where cafes can separate themselves from fast food chains.
Jay Caragay said:Hmmm, considering that Paul (the original poster) noted "semi-auto" espresso machines, that eliminated the super-autos from my response.
There certainly are many important reasons to proffer a super-auto. Ease, convenience and speed are at the top of the list. Great quality is certainly not one of them. And while I've never had extensive experience with one, I am convinced that it should be possible to produce something tasty from a super-auto.
The question to ask yourself is: "what vision of coffee do I have and that I want to deliver?" Once you've made that decision, the choices become more readily apparent. For myself, our focus is on our customers and providing them with extreme quality product. We favor hand-made, locally-sourced and top-quality methods. Naturally, this leads us to the machines I outlined above.
For most operators who are in the mainstream, I don't know if I would recommend the same machines. I wouldn't recommend them because they probably do not have the same level of commitment to product as many here on this forum, and certainly not the commitment that me (and my company) pursues. For us (my company), a super-auto is a compromise machine. A compromise for speed and for lowering our training bar and, therefore, quality. It is not a compromise we are willing to make.
But it is a compromise many operators are, have and will make.
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Espresso Rescue said:Isn't the Dalla Corte and PID'd Marzocco halfway there? Just because a few steps in the process are taken out does that make the barista an automatron? How far does a machine have to be "tricked out" before it is not artisan? I'm trying to see where the line is. The general public is pretty accepting of advances in technology and would enjoy a morning conversation with the preparer of their drink regardless of how they are preparing it. That's where the magic is and that's where cafes can separate themselves from fast food chains.
You know, I'm really not interested in your debate. It's neither here nor there. The original poster asked about semi-auto machines and you've decided to make this some diatribe about super-autos. Personally, if Super-Auto is your choice and you're happy with that choice, then more power to you. Your path is one of less training, less cost, greater ease and lower overall costs. It's not the path my company chooses.
While adding functions such as PID controllers may be a common thread between the new generation of espresso machines and the super-auto versions, the super-autos remain push-button efficient - where you simply press the button and the machine does everything for you. Perhaps the new generation of semi-auto machines are "halfway" there, but it's that "halfway" that still makes the difference between a push-button "barista" and that of the craftsman Barista.
If you can't see that difference then that is where the divide between you and me lies, and forever it shall remain.
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