Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Daniel Williamson on October 23, 2009 at 12:43pm

When introducing coffee to an inexperienced community, wouldn't making the best possible coffee be the easiest way to do that? Wouldn't using a semi-auto with properly trained baristas be a far better route to really explain to customers what is going on in the process (educating them by showing them). If they are not even used to crappy starbucks coffee (i.e. they still think it's a treat), then why not really wow them from the start and prove to them from the start that you focus on the care taken for expertly crafting their drink for them by hand? To me, that sounds like a no-brainer, AND I'm trying to divorce myself from my predisposition to hate SA machines.

If you really want to convey a sense of care for the coffee, concern for what is going inside your customers, that you take your job seriously, there's a lot more to coffee than they previously thought, and educate them (because that is his main focus now) WHAT BETTER WAY TO DO THAT than on a semi-auto?

Espresso Rescue said:

No Jay I haven't opened my own shop. I have helped others open shops and therefor have pretty good authority to give advice about it. Obviously I am not suggesting that Paul build another shop in a year. What I am suggesting is purchasing a superauto (these days prices on them have dropped significantly to compete with traditional) and relying on the consistency to build his staff and operations. After one year the machine should still have a resale value of 50-75% assuming it was cleaned regularly and taken care of. The market for used equipment is great and reselling the superauto really shouldn't be a problem (and yes I am speaking from experience on that as well). So in the end, Paul may have to spend a grand or so extra than if he started off with a semi auto.
I know the image of "chucking" a year old superauto probably gets you all hot and bothered Jay but to a lot of people it's a valuable piece of equipment.
Paul, is anything that I've said having an impact on your views? You can whisper so the popular kids don't think you're uncool.
Jay Caragay said:

Rescue-
Have you ever actually owned or operated a coffee joint before? Because your response seems to encourage Paul to go out, build a shop (with presumably a Super Auto), "build" the community (with super auto coffee) and then either buy a new machine or build a new shop after a year - and the "community" will follow - is this correct?

Any operator knows how expensive it is to build a coffee joint. Let's spend twelve thousand dollars (probably more) on a super auto, only to chuck it in twelve months for a semi-auto??? Or let's spend one hundred thousand dollars building a shop, only to toss it off and build a new one in twelve months???

This just seems like a completely ludicrous way to go about things.

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on October 23, 2009 at 3:34pm

Paul, if you wanted to take (which I know you don't) the "superauto" route, get a $3,500 La Marzocco Swift and switch that out for a $2000 Mazzer or something at some point. Not a freaking $9,000+ espresso machine. Go ahead and run the idea of two machines in two years past your financial adviser and see what he/she has to say about that one...

You can't spend time training your staff before you open?
Huh... Weird...
In 4 shops that I have worked at, 2 that I personally worked with before they were open, all baristas were fully trained before any open signs were turned on. I guess we wanted to be ready for business from the start.

On the other hand, I had one start up (The Strutt, where I am now) where there was no time to train before we opened (not financial restrictions, just time restrictions). There was an awesome space available and we needed to grab it up right then or one of the other 4 people bidding for it would have snatched it up. So we signed the papers and moved in. After a couple weeks working on fixing everything up, we held some group interviews, then some solo interviews. We picked out our staff in about 4 days. About one month after the space became available we turned on the open sign and got going. I trained everyone while we were open, on bar, on customer's drinks. It was still a long road before we let them cut loose and do things without me on shift. It was an extremely intensive first couple weeks. I put in a lot of 18 hour days, usually more than 110 hours a week, and because the shop was open 7 days/week I didn't have a day single off for more than 3 months (most owners on here can relate to that one), but it was necessary. I knew that I wanted to have a well trained staff and I wasn't going to cut corners and sacrifice drink quality to do it. Fantasy land can be fantastic sometimes.

I thoroughly enjoyed how in one post you go on and on about how you love all of these different aspects of semi-auto machines and pouring your heart and soul into coffee and then in the next you distance yourself from anyone who recommends a semi-auto by insulting us and calling us "the cool kids" as if we are just a bunch of pricks.

We are giving sound advice, and the kind that Paul directed his question toward. There is no need to personally attack us.

How many coffees does it take for someone to pull out citrus notes? Show a barista how to pull a shot. Hold their hand through the first 10-15 (maybe) and then they should be pulling citrus out of the espresso easily, if that is an attribute to the bean. Chances are it won't be the best, most mind-blowing shot I've ever tasted, but I should be able to catch the gist of what the coffee has the potential to deliver. But I guess this all depends on whether I'm using a semi auto or a super auto ;)

-bry

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Permalink Reply by Andrew Tagge on October 23, 2009 at 9:17pm

I think it's great that you accuse "us" of "textual ass-kickings" and then two sentences later classify "us" as "the exclusive, untouchable popular kids in school." It makes me really want to value what you say and to give you the utmost honor and respect when talking to you. Though, I guess the good news is I may be popular now. I never really was in school...

Espresso Rescue said:

Yeah Jesse! Thanks for humoring me, not writing me off or threatening me with textual ass-kickings (am I not part of the "WE" here Paul? Wait, my account is still active right? Oh phew). I will find out about possibilities for you to play around with a Melitta that are in the Rocky Mountain area of the country and report back. Thanks for being open to change and not perpetuating the rest of the world's view of baristas as the exclusive, untouchable popular kids in school.

Jesse Bladyka said:

I would like to know where I can get "good coffee" out of one of these superautos. This sounds like a really interesting machine and I'd love to spend a day with one. I have very little experience with super-autos, simply because I love and believe in the human element of service and hand made goods, whether it is bakery, dinner, or coffee, I want slow food. Anyway, are there any of these machines in service in the Rocky Mountain region? Any independents that might allow a bloke to come play with their fancy machine? I'm going against all of my preconceptions here and trying hard not to knock it until I try it.

Espresso Rescue said:

I'd like to know what experiences you are drawing from in your evaluation of super autos? We repair many from the bitty Starbucks Barista machines up to the Melitta machines and everything in between. And you are right, most produce a tainted brew. Why would this be? Think about the food path. If it's touching plastic it is most likely being tainted by past drinks and coating/staining the plastic to create future tainting. The starbucks machines (and I mean the home machines that they sell, not what they use in their stores) are completely plastic. The Egro, the Jura, the Schaerer, and Saeco are for the most part plastic. The Verissimo 701 and 801, the higher end Franke machines and the Melitta machines are for the most part stainless steel. Pretty much down to the spout. Do some real taste testing on some real super autos and I think you will find quality.
I know I am standing up for he-who-shall-not-be-named, Mr Super Auto, on the largest online community for professional baristas but the only way the rest of society will get onboard with espresso is if it fits their life. Everyone on here wants as many people as possible to share the magic of Specialty Coffee at its finest but, oh yeah, you have to live in a place that can support it economically (like not most of Middle America), you have to have time to wait for someone to make something that could take a third of the time, and you have to give pretty advanced training to your staff if you plan to serve it or provide it in your business.
I'm not saying "down with traditional", I'm saying there is a time and a place and no one should be excluded.

What does the barista do to create that "magic", "soul", "love" that makes the espresso superior? The super auto I'm talking about (the Melitta C5FF) begins with a Mahlkonig Grinder. The burrs set themselves based on humidity and temp readings. It's dosed into a chamber much the same size as a Spaziale. A stainless steel piston applies thirty pounds of pressure much like an Espro Clicker Tamp. The extraction is through a micro screen with probably 100 times the holes as a traditional grouphead screen (45,150 holes to be exact), a much finer extraction. The water comes from a brew boiler that is PID controlled. The steam is coming from a steam boiler that is PID controlled.
So where was the magic supposed to be added?
Another suggestion for you is to make sure you are having GOOD coffee out of the superautomatic, this is one of the remaining factors that the Super Auto cannot control.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on October 23, 2009 at 9:33pm

Popular Kids? You're not lumping me into that category, are you?

If so, you haven't been talking to Nick Cho....



Rescue, while you may have helped other people open shops, I have been the one putting money on the line opening shops and putting forth our vision to a customer base. As such, I'm coming from the point of view of an operator pushing the misconceptions of coffee in our community.

While you may hold on to these cute notions of a super auto biding time with the populace while Paul gets his act together and sells the SA in a years' time, I think that's a fool's route to quality. The pursuit of quality is never ending. It's not something you put off today while biding your time to get the community rallied around a common-level product with the hope that someday you'll be successful enough to make the change to quality.

That pursuit starts now. At the beginning. If Paul has decided that he wants to pursue his vision with a semi-auto, then by all means he should pursue that goal.

Quite frankly, you're giving us a lot of talk. If you're so sure that utilizing a super-auto for a year is the path towards excellent quality, then why are you only "helping" people open shops? Put up your dollar and build a shop with this vision you're promoting here.

Then there's your statement of drinking off a single group Astoria. Who gives a crap? You posture about super-autos then feel so compelled to tell me: "I drink off a single group Astoria so you know"?? Did you think that I cared? Did you think that would make you "cool" in the eyes of the "popular kids"?


And, I should note that "chucking an espresso machine after a year" does not get me "hot and bothered." Latina chicks get me hot and bothered...

Espresso Rescue said:

No Jay I haven't opened my own shop. I have helped others open shops and therefor have pretty good authority to give advice about it. Obviously I am not suggesting that Paul build another shop in a year. What I am suggesting is purchasing a superauto (these days prices on them have dropped significantly to compete with traditional) and relying on the consistency to build his staff and operations. After one year the machine should still have a resale value of 50-75% assuming it was cleaned regularly and taken care of. The market for used equipment is great and reselling the superauto really shouldn't be a problem (and yes I am speaking from experience on that as well). So in the end, Paul may have to spend a grand or so extra than if he started off with a semi auto.
I know the image of "chucking" a year old superauto probably gets you all hot and bothered Jay but to a lot of people it's a valuable piece of equipment.
Paul, is anything that I've said having an impact on your views? You can whisper so the popular kids don't think you're uncool.
Jay Caragay said:

Rescue-
Have you ever actually owned or operated a coffee joint before? Because your response seems to encourage Paul to go out, build a shop (with presumably a Super Auto), "build" the community (with super auto coffee) and then either buy a new machine or build a new shop after a year - and the "community" will follow - is this correct?

Any operator knows how expensive it is to build a coffee joint. Let's spend twelve thousand dollars (probably more) on a super auto, only to chuck it in twelve months for a semi-auto??? Or let's spend one hundred thousand dollars building a shop, only to toss it off and build a new one in twelve months???

This just seems like a completely ludicrous way to go about things.

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Permalink Reply by Brewed Expressions Coffee House on October 24, 2009 at 5:29am

I use a Rancilio Epoca in my shop. I've had it for 6 yrs & have only called for service 2 times. One was a cleaining training. I also have an older model Rancilo for the drive thru. It has the auto steam wand. Both 2 group. I chose them for ease of use /training/repair. I also am in a small town. I found a roaster who also has a tech that works with them who does repairs. Sometimes they have a connection to someone who might want to be trading up & has one for sale.
Repairs are key. If your machine goes down & you have to wait for parts, then pay big $ for a service call in a small business that could kill you. Take all the machines mentioned in this blog & look for a tech who is close to you for repairs. Call them about parts availability, or a loaner while your's is down,ect.. Then after you narrow that down by brand go to a town who has numerous coffee shops (Not the big chains there employees use what there told to use) & ask the owner if you can look at the machine. Most people will be glad to show you. Those who don't well.....
As for your 4 Questions:
1) Ease of cleaning. Gaskets,screens,parts ect. If it's out in the open Looks are a factor. Eye appeal is important.
2) I don't use an auto steam wand. The one in my drive thru we always use the manual.My customers deem that as lazy. The employees will catch on. Plus I feel they have more pride in there pours when they do it manually.
3) Going to high end at the start. If you grow out of you machine then your making money. You can always upgrade or use it as a backup machine if yours goes down.
4) As I said I use the Rancilio Epoca.. It was about $ 5,500-6,000. about 6 yrs ago when I started.

You mentioned Mickie D's. Just don't go to automated. It cheapens the experience. Look at the new Dunkin Donuts commercial for there Pumpkin spice Latte. They show coffee being poured into a cup with milk & pumpkin spice....not espresso.. customers area allot smarter than we think.







Paul Yates said:

@ bry- My volume is uncertain at this point, as a coffee shop has never been started in this town. However, due to my planned location, in the downtown business area and close to the county courthouse, I think I can anticipate a steady flow of perhaps 10 people an hour coming in, with bursts up to 20 to 25. I plan to offer non-espresso based drinks to appeal to the non-coffee drinkers, as well as light snacks, desserts, pastries, with wifi and comfortable seating in the mix. It will be a place for business people to meet, grab breakfast or lunch, get that midmorning pick-me-up capp or latte. You get the idea. If you are coming to the Southeast Reg. Barista Jam, we could discuss it more in depth.

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Permalink Reply by Marshall Fuss on October 25, 2009 at 10:08am

Espresso Rescue said:

OK no one has put in a good word for super automatic machines yet, which I find very surprising.

If you found that "surprising," you must have thought you joined "PeopleWhoPushButtonsOnVendingMachinesExchange." This is a barista-oriented forum. You will find a more receptive audience to flog your superautos on general coffee retailer sites.

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Permalink Reply by Lorenzo Perkins on October 25, 2009 at 12:12pm

Marshall with the kill!

Marshall Fuss said:

Espresso Rescue said:

OK no one has put in a good word for super automatic machines yet, which I find very surprising.

If you found that "surprising," you must have thought you joined "PeopleWhoPushButtonsOnVendingMachinesExchange." This is a barista-oriented forum. You will find a more receptive audience to flog your superautos on general coffee retailer sites.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Yates on October 25, 2009 at 2:33pm

I appreciate the emphasis BX has demonstrated toward bettering the barista, rather than leaning on technology to do the work for the barista. Granted, advances in technology can and do make the barista's work easier at times. What they really offer is the opportunity for a barista to learn all the nuances of whatever he is extracting at the time, because each technological advance gives him more control over each fundamental element of the extraction process. However, not one of these advances should ever attempt to remove the barista from the equation! I believe that the barista is the crucial element that gives that shot, that capp, that macchiato, the "magic" that sets our coffee apart from that of Starbucks, McDonalds, and others who must use super-autos to compensate for inadequate training coupled with a consumer "get 'em in-get 'em out" mentality.

Super-autos have their place...just not on my counter.

Now, while I have enjoyed the discussion/debate, and learned much, and revealed my ignorance and passion, I would like for more discussion on the OP, rather than this fascinating rabbit trail. :)

For clarification: Many of you cited the extreme importance of factory trained/authorized service companies and parts availability as a key consideration. This makes a great deal of sense to me. However, does anyone have any information regarding reputable service companies operating in the Central Savannah River Area? I know that Brady has his business in Charlotte and surrounding areas, and that there are businesses in Florida. Any located in Georgia?

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Permalink Reply by Lorenzo Perkins on October 25, 2009 at 10:47pm

You are kinda in the middle of nowhere, right? If i'm not mistaken though, your close to Augusta, and not TOO far from Atlanta. I would talk to Counter Culture or Octane in Atlanta for some names and numbers on service techs and part availability close to you.

Also, talk to your roaster. They should be able to direct you in a positive direction, and hopefully have one or two techs that they know and can recommend.

I will say this. Since La Marzocco stopped working with Franke, and started La Marzocco USA service has been spectacular! Parts get here super fast, friendly folks, and a helluva lot of knowledge. Not to mention, amazing machines. As well as being a huge name in the industry, it shouldn't be too hard to find someone who knows how to work on them, not that you will need much work done on them.

To echo what was stated above, the Linea is the workhorse of our industry, and it don't get much better than the GB5 . . . unless of course you're talking about the Strada. BAM!

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Permalink Reply by Coffeehorse on October 31, 2009 at 7:57pm

Espresso Rescue said:

ou can always upgrade later once you have mastered the other stuff.

Really? Is that before or after the new guys with the cool branding, the free wi-fi, the more expensive fitout and Linea/Robur have moved in and taken away your client base by providing a more evolved/higher quality drink at the same price? Once you've gone down a route with a super-auto taste, to re-educate all the people who come in expecting your usual drink (and to hook all the people who turned away in disgust at the just-above-starbucks-level swill) is a mammoth task, and an expensive one both in time and refurb. Better to start as you mean to go on. See: false dichotomy.

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