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Permalink Reply by Brady on December 14, 2009 at 10:53am

I think the comparisons to other industries are worth noting The big difference though, is that the majority of the customers at the majority of shops do not order straight espresso... or even a drink where espresso is the dominant flavor. You can mask a lot of evils with lots of milk, vanilla, and whipped cream.

Every single customer at the hypothetical steakhouse would send that charred bit of jerky back. However, if you send your shot back, you'll probably be the first rejected drink all week. That's not to say that crap should just be tolerated, but I think the approach needs to reflect the situation.

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Permalink Reply by Chris/Dale on December 14, 2009 at 11:11am

Brady said:

I think the comparisons to other industries are worth noting The big difference though, is that the majority of the customers at the majority of shops do not order straight espresso... or even a drink where espresso is the dominant flavor. You can mask a lot of evils with lots of milk, vanilla, and whipped cream.
Every single customer at the hypothetical steakhouse would send that charred bit of jerky back. However, if you send your shot back, you'll probably be the first rejected drink all week. That's not to say that crap should just be tolerated, but I think the approach needs to reflect the situation.

For fear of dragging it too far of topic...

Following the steakhouse analogy, we all get the customer who orders the 60 dollar steak well done. Just out of curiosity, if the tables ( or rather counters were turned) How many of us would pull those shots alluuuuuuuuuungo if requested?

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Permalink Reply by Matt B on December 14, 2009 at 2:16pm

Business owners generally want to know if you are not satisfied with something--at least the ones trying to do a good job do. They don't want you to walk out the door, never to come back, without them knowing why you did so. They want your money.

I wouldn't necessarily offer advice, but if a shot was too long or quick, I'd have no problem asking for another that had been corrected. Of course, their idea of a good espresso drink may not ultimately match your own. Then it's just time to move on.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on December 14, 2009 at 2:23pm

Jared,
I think it's tolerated because people don't know the difference. I know the difference and I use my experience and powers of deduction to decide whether or not the coffeeshop is up to my standards. If it isn't, I choose something else - like iced tea. I don't need to go through the routine of trying to "correct" a barista or a coffeeshop. That's the operators' job, not mine. My job is to spend my money discriminately.

Of course a microbrewery's patrons would be irate. They're regulars who know what the product their ordering should taste like - and if it isn't, they should complain. But I'm never a "regular" at a coffeeshop and it's not my place to correct what they're doing.

But MAYBE, coffee IS different. Maybe the people don't know the difference. But maybe the people know that the operators and baristas themselves don't care. If they don't care, how can there be change? Maybe the "baristas" are too busy being cool hipsters to shower and make quality coffee. Maybe the operators and baristas themselves don't know the difference.

I think it's a combination of the above and the lack of demonstrable passion in the barista that the customer sees. People respond to people who are passionate about what they do - and most coffee people just don't know jack about coffee.

Which is why I don't bother trying to change these "coffee professionals" - chances are they probably think the SCAA means Stock Car Association of America, and USBC means United States Bowling Congress. And frankly, I don't care either that the SCAA defines espresso as 20-30 seconds because it's too broad for my standards.

Sadly, most people prefer the well done steak as coffee because they don't know the difference. They think that effective coffee has to be burnt and ashy. I always have new customers that ask for the darkest roast we serve - and we serve them the same medium roast that we serve everyone else - most of them love the rich flavor and the nuances that they've never experienced before. Others still prefer Folgers.

Jared Rutledge said:

i think you have every right to let the barista know what is expected in a tactful and kind tone. in what other industry is this level of incompetence tolerated? if a microbrewery was charging $4.50 for carbonated water that had been sitting open for 3 weeks, its patrons would be IRATE. why is coffee different?

if someone handed me a 6 oz. 15 second double, i would tactfully ask them (in a tone that suggested i cared about their business succeeding) if they knew the SCAA's definition of espresso was a 20-30 second 60ml shot. i don't think it's rude or intrusive to expect something within the national coffee body's standards. if you ordered a $30 t-bone at a restaurant, and you got a charred bit of jerky and gristle, that is unacceptable. yet a 6 oz. 15 second espresso pull is acceptable? the situation is never going to get better unless we make the standard known.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Yates on December 14, 2009 at 3:03pm

Not saying I've done this, but I thought about it as I was reading the previous posts: Tell the barista that you are going to order 2 doubles. One you want him to pull as he normally does, and the other following your recommended procedure. Have him split the shots, with him getting one of each, and you getting one of each. Both of you try his split shot, and then try your split shot. Ask him which one is better. If he says yours, chances are he will consider changing his brewing procedure. If he says his, then leave after paying, and forget that I recommended this experiment...

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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on December 14, 2009 at 5:22pm

jay, most people don't know good french cuisine or good vegan food either, yet you don't see terrible restaurants proliferating - if they suck, they usually go out of business pretty quick. i've seen it over and over again here in asheville, yet the vast majority of coffeeshops survive by letting their coffee sit in airpots all day, or pulling watery underextracted shots. coffee is allowed to suck.

part of the problem is education, to be sure, but i think that aspect will be solved in the next ten years, just like with beer. people will be far more aware of coffee and what quality production means. there will be the odd redneck who just wants a flavored latte (or a coors light), but by and large i think people are slowly starting to learn more about good coffee and its culture.

the other part of the problem, however, is our lack of tactful snobbery. seems like coffee drinkers are either annoying and mean snobs, or they don't care and get venti hazelnut breves. i think pulling a manager aside and explaining a few issues with the espresso is entirely appropriate. it would be appropriate in any other medium.

if a customer orders a charred steak, then the onus is on the customer. if the steak comes charred automatically, it's the restaurant's problem.

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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on December 14, 2009 at 10:30pm

Jared-
I think this is where we just have to disagree.

Don't know about where you live but finding really good to great French restaurants is quite difficult where I live. There are places that pass as "french" but after you've been to France and eaten some exquisite French food, the stark reality becomes apparent - yet these "french" places thrive. Don't know much to anything about vegan restaurants - but I've heard that they're far worse. Lots of attitude about "vegan" but very little respect for ingredients or understanding of preparation.

I hope your assessment that the coffee world will improve over the next ten years. But I don't see that improvement happening because the current operators woke up and smelled the coffee, so to speak. I can see happening when new, coffee conscious operators start rolling and doing interesting things. It's the newcomers that will bring the revolution, not the old stalwarts. Which is another reason I don't evangelize to them or try to change them. If they can't see it on their own, it's not worth my time. I'll leave the missionary work to the Mormons.

Jared Rutledge said:

jay, most people don't know good french cuisine or good vegan food either, yet you don't see terrible restaurants proliferating - if they suck, they usually go out of business pretty quick. i've seen it over and over again here in asheville, yet the vast majority of coffeeshops survive by letting their coffee sit in airpots all day, or pulling watery underextracted shots. coffee is allowed to suck.

part of the problem is education, to be sure, but i think that aspect will be solved in the next ten years, just like with beer. people will be far more aware of coffee and what quality production means. there will be the odd redneck who just wants a flavored latte (or a coors light), but by and large i think people are slowly starting to learn more about good coffee and its culture.

the other part of the problem, however, is our lack of tactful snobbery. seems like coffee drinkers are either annoying and mean snobs, or they don't care and get venti hazelnut breves. i think pulling a manager aside and explaining a few issues with the espresso is entirely appropriate. it would be appropriate in any other medium.

if a customer orders a charred steak, then the onus is on the customer. if the steak comes charred automatically, it's the restaurant's problem.

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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on December 14, 2009 at 10:46pm

well, i think as consumer education improves, the old stalwarts will either fail and go bankrupt or have to step their game up. but certainly the newcomers will drive it - that's what i'm hoping to do. so i don't necessarily disagree with you there.

i'm sure there are bad french restaurants scattered across the states, i was more saying that the incompetence in the coffee industry is just on a different level. it's rife. even if 30% of all french restaurants were decent, only 3-5% of all coffee shops would be. coffeeshop owners are just dumbasses of another breed altogether.

also, very few people would get some money together and be like "man, i sure do like beef bourguignon, i'll open a french restaurant!" however, tons of people have, and still do, get a little money together and say "man, i like my morning cup of folgers/starbucks, i'll open/buy a coffee shop!" that strikes me as really weird. like coffee shops are a low-maintenance high-reward business or something.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Penney on December 15, 2009 at 7:10am

I like the watch and see method. That look at the equipment and how it is used has saved me a lot of money. If all looks good, and I get a bad shot, I may ask a question. " What is the date on the beans?" That gives the barista an out. I usually can tell by the answer whether to order another shot or get my money back. It seem to be tongue in cheek but I also hold a dollar bill in hand while I await my shot when trying a new shop. Surprising how the care increases when I tip after the shot! I am fortunate to have two well managed and trained shops when i go to St Paul/Mpls. There I don't need to! Around here I am in a wasteland. You know it is a wasteland when the best milk drink is served by a well maintained " Franke" super auto in a Borders' book store. So I sit and sip and read!
May all your shots be godlike!
-Merry Christmas!
-Richard

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Permalink Reply by Ruston Reynolds on December 15, 2009 at 8:19am

I guess I just have to accept that it is what it is. It just sucks to invest the time to check out a new coffee shop only to be completely disappointed.
Hey, Richard, what are the 2 shops in the Twin Cities you mentioned?

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Permalink Reply by Andrew Tagge on December 15, 2009 at 8:33am

I'm really glad to see another fan of Kopplin's and Rustica. Also, there is a shop in South Saint Paul called Black Sheep that can turn out some really good espresso. And hey, next time you are in Rustica, check if there is a guy named Justin working. He has a ton of really curly hair. He can get you an amazing espresso. Just let him know I told you to get one from him. You will definitely get the best service and shot possible.

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Permalink Reply by Joona Suominen on December 15, 2009 at 9:17am

Chris/Dale said:

My approach would involve the following four things:
3. Talk to the barista, for sure, I've got a few questions that I ask in these situations. I usually start with something like "What kind of coffee are you working with?" And Then let the conversation unfold. I typically don't tell people that I work in coffee because they can get a little weird / defensive about it. If they ask you how it was, be honest. Be polite but be honest. Don't tell them how to fix it because that's not what they asked. At best you've made a connection and have an opportunity to help them down the road once you've developed a connection...at worst you know that you're not headed back.

4. Finally, what you've admitted is that your new to the scene and have a long way to go. I would remember this whenever I walk up to someone else's bar and consider offering correction. Believe it or not there may be instances where you could learn a thing or two from a barista who pulls a 6 oz espresso.

This excactly. Here's my opinions

3) If a barista has any pride in his/her work,s/he'll give value to your feedback. Few of my favorite customers are home baristas who truly understand their coffee and can give feedback. Feedback will be easier for the barista to accept if it has both positive and negative sides. For instance what you liked in the coffee (the bright tones) and what the coffee lacked (body for example). During long shifts when I've had too many espressos to tell what's actually good the feedback from these customers has been absolutely godsend.

4) No matter how good one is this should always be kept in mind. I know there's a huge temptation to walk in a cafe with a clint eastwood-look to show how things are to be done. Resist the urge. It's rude and arrogant.

Some coffee connoisseurs have driven me mad more than a few times with criticizing the way I don't knock the portafilter with tamper or how we don't 'weiss distribute' (we are a coffee shop with equipments to match, not a friggin' home kitchen).

If a place is serving shots that long, it's probably a lost cause anyway.

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