Pour Over Help
We are now offering pour over to our customers. They can side-step the urns to get any varietal they want. We don't have a dedicated water boiler to get the water to 200F so we are instructed to use more coffee! We get the water from the drip brewer (190F, which declines almost immediately) and go to town at the pour over station using about 2oz of ground coffee for a 12oz serving. I'm not the manager, but I find this disagreeable! I HATE wasting coffee and DESPISE serving anything not done right!
When I make it, I get the hot water and heat it from the steam wand from the right side of the espresso machine -- the side no one ever uses -- for about 5 Mississippi's (This brings the temp up to, roughly, 200F to 205F) and pour it over the correct coffee to water ratio, 1Tbsp:4oz, and serve customers a 16oz. Management does NOT like this, yet, the customers prefer my method because the coffee is properly extracted, it's hot (the no.1 complaint about the mgr's method), and it doesn't taste like a ton of coffee was used to brew with, so you can actually taste what the coffee has to offer!
Not being one to question one's experience and authority, am I wrong? Can you adjust the coffee to water ratio based on water temps? Adjusting the grind is out of the question because of the filter type we use, which is paper. Besides, you can tell when the grind is off, regardless! I mean,Toddy is quite awesome, after all. So, how would you ensure a proper pour over using 190F water?
Thanks a ton!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Simon Ouderkirk on
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ARRON,
There's a lot going on here. Let me see if I have your situation laid out properly:
- Appx. 190F water (presumably filtered, if it's coming from a brewer - are you certain it's consistently 190?)
- You're using 2oz of ground coffee to a 12oz cup, which seems like a pretty epic overdose. 2oz is around 56 grams, which is almost what you'd need for a liter (33.8 oz) of brew! I'd imagine that your accusation of wastefulness is pretty spot-on. FWIW, I generally use 16-18g of ground coffee to 10oz of water, which fits perfectly in an 11oz diner mug.
- Additional heating to the water, if it doesn't interrupt your other baristi and is a smooth workflow, seems like a good idea - with the caveat that your water is actually coming from the spout at 190 consistently.
- I am unclear on your dose change - your management prescribes a 2oz dose for a 12oz brew, but you use 4 tbsp for 16oz - isn't 4 tbsp appx. 2 oz? If I understand you correctly, you're going from a 56g dose for a 12oz brew to a 56g dose for a 16oz brew.
Is my math off on these figures? I'm going with Google's auto-convert function, so it may be off. Can anyone else chime in here?
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Permalink Reply by Nick Cho on
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1) What kind of pour-over drippers?
2) What are you using to "get the water?"
3) Why does the filter determine the grind? The brew-time determines the grind (sort of).
Coffee-to-water ratio is important, but it's not everything. That's the tricky thing about pour-over, or any manual-brewing system. There's a ton that we take for granted that our trusty Fetco or Bunn brewers do by design and automatically; things that we mess up when we take it manual.
A non-exhaustive list of the things to consider:
Coffee-to-water ratio. (~60 grams per liter is optimum, ±10%)
Water temp. (195-205*F)
Dripper temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Pouring-pitcher temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Total brew time. (at least 3 minutes, no more than 4)
Amount of turbulence created during the brew. (more turbulence may need a coarser grind)
The way the coffee grounds sit in the dripper during brew. (whatever promotes even extraction)
The way you're pouring the water. (methodical, logical, even, measured)
How long it takes you to pour the water. (whatever gets you to your target brew time)
Shape of the dripper. (determines the flow rate, and the optimum coffee dose)
As with any coffee brewing, you can only preserve and coax-out the quality that's in the coffee, so if the coffee isn't great quality, or the roasting isn't spot-on, or isn't fresh, then there isn't too much point in getting the parameters super-tight, aside from you getting some practice before you move on to a place that has better coffee to work with! That said, coffee brewing by hand is pretty tough with most of the tools available. Hopefully we'll see some easier tools and methods, but for now... have fun exploring! :-)
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Permalink Reply by Phil Proteau on
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I see the real issue as this:
1-It is not your coffee shop.
2-You don't get to decide.
3-If the boss refuses to listen to other opinions (usually because it's their ass on the line and they believe the have all the answers already, and who do you think you are to insert yourself in their business) then that is the end of the discussion.
What you can do, which may be very little under these circumstances, is to suggest a blind tasting of a few different brewing methods with the purpose of finding out the best taste/cost-efficient method. Your line of attack is to increase the profit margin of each drink.
If you can show, in a blind taste test, that your method results in better tasting coffee with lower cost of goods and higher profit yield, I bet the boss switches (if they can be humble enough to admit your way is better). But here is the thing, your method really has to be better. You must deliver the goods. And what Nick says is true, it really freakin' hard to make awesome coffee by hand.
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Permalink Reply by ¡AЯЯÓN! on
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Thanks for the input! A fine drip grind tasted over-extracted, and conversely, coarse drip tasted under extracted in all scenarios I tried.
1) The pour over station -- imagine a standard brew basket that hangs over the cup. Not a Chemex style.
2) The water is sourced from the Fetco brewer - There is an integrated hot water tap, consistently 190F
3) The filter determines the grind as different filters work within a range of different coffee particle sizes. Drip vs. French press or Espresso vs. Turkish and so on. The Filter works with the Grind to achieve a desired saturation/brew time and this needs to be dialed in so as not to get over/under extraction.
I understand the coaxing of quality in the coffee. On top of tasting for quality in the coffee (flavor profiles, roast levels for any given varietal and so on, is it a post-blend? and so on), I am able to taste for proper preparation and this is what I'm having trouble with. You're right on the money in having said that manual preparation is difficult! But I am pretty stubborn and will find, eventually, the proper solution - thanks for your input as I will continue my exploration!
Aaron
Nick Cho said:1) What kind of pour-over drippers?
2) What are you using to "get the water?"
3) Why does the filter determine the grind? The brew-time determines the grind (sort of).
Coffee-to-water ratio is important, but it's not everything. That's the tricky thing about pour-over, or any manual-brewing system. There's a ton that we take for granted that our trusty Fetco or Bunn brewers do by design and automatically; things that we mess up when we take it manual.
A non-exhaustive list of the things to consider:
Coffee-to-water ratio. (~60 grams per liter is optimum, ±10%)
Water temp. (195-205*F)
Dripper temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Pouring-pitcher temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Total brew time. (at least 3 minutes, no more than 4)
Amount of turbulence created during the brew. (more turbulence may need a coarser grind)
The way the coffee grounds sit in the dripper during brew. (whatever promotes even extraction)
The way you're pouring the water. (methodical, logical, even, measured)
How long it takes you to pour the water. (whatever gets you to your target brew time)
Shape of the dripper. (determines the flow rate, and the optimum coffee dose)
As with any coffee brewing, you can only preserve and coax-out the quality that's in the coffee, so if the coffee isn't great quality, or the roasting isn't spot-on, or isn't fresh, then there isn't too much point in getting the parameters super-tight, aside from you getting some practice before you move on to a place that has better coffee to work with! That said, coffee brewing by hand is pretty tough with most of the tools available. Hopefully we'll see some easier tools and methods, but for now... have fun exploring! :-)
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Thanks Simon
Water comes from the brewer at a consistent 190F. Pardon the miscalculation, we are told to use .18lbs (what we use for about a liter of drip! So maybe not 2oz after all), to produce a 12oz cup. That's a lot! Also, 190F is not hot enough to extract as water cools quickly once poured into the pitcher, then into the pour over - it MUST be heated to AT LEAST 200F for our setup.
So, in heating the water from 190 to ~200 I have been able to get a, seemingly, proper extraction from much, much less coffee. And I use 4Tbsp for 16oz, not .18lbs for 12oz. The customers have all been stoked on what I've been serving them and that, for me, says enough. But I have my doubts -- maybe I'm wrong about something still
Thanks a ton for your thoughts - much appreciated!
Aaron
Simon Ouderkirk said:ARRON,
There's a lot going on here. Let me see if I have your situation laid out properly:
- Appx. 190F water (presumably filtered, if it's coming from a brewer - are you certain it's consistently 190?)
- You're using 2oz of ground coffee to a 12oz cup, which seems like a pretty epic overdose. 2oz is around 56 grams, which is almost what you'd need for a liter (33.8 oz) of brew! I'd imagine that your accusation of wastefulness is pretty spot-on. FWIW, I generally use 16-18g of ground coffee to 10oz of water, which fits perfectly in an 11oz diner mug.
- Additional heating to the water, if it doesn't interrupt your other baristi and is a smooth workflow, seems like a good idea - with the caveat that your water is actually coming from the spout at 190 consistently.
- I am unclear on your dose change - your management prescribes a 2oz dose for a 12oz brew, but you use 4 tbsp for 16oz - isn't 4 tbsp appx. 2 oz? If I understand you correctly, you're going from a 56g dose for a 12oz brew to a 56g dose for a 16oz brew.
Is my math off on these figures? I'm going with Google's auto-convert function, so it may be off. Can anyone else chime in here?
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Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on
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Aaron,
First I agree 100% with Phil. Not your shop, not your decision on what practices to implement. If one of my staff refused to prepare a beverage the way instructed, they'd be gone, period.
That said I also agree with Phil suggesting a quality in the cup AND bottom line approach discussing the matter.
IF your latest stated grinds weight of 0.18lb for 12oz cup is actually correct, that's beyond financially ludicrous from an owners state point. 0.18lb=81.65g for a 12oz pour-over.
Let's break it down. Let's say you shop is only paying a low ball $6/lb for coffee. 1lb=454g/81.65g=5.56 cups. OVER $1 per cup cost of just the coffee! Now if you were to brew using 22g, what I use for 12oz pour over getting rave reviews let's see the difference.
454/22=20.6 cups if again @$6/lb that makes it 29cents cost of coffee per cup. Just 100 12oz pour-overs using 22g would save $107.91-$29.13=$78.78 saved EVERY 100 12oz pour over cups. SEVENTY NINE CENTS SAVED EVERY CUP! 200 12oz pour over cups savings would pay for a 5 liter Zoji to have proper brew temp water...
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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¡ARRÓN! said:...3) The filter determines the grind as different filters work within a range of different coffee particle sizes. Drip vs. French press or Espresso vs. Turkish and so on. The Filter works with the Grind to achieve a desired saturation/brew time and this needs to be dialed in so as not to get over/under extraction...
Nick Cho said:1) 3) Why does the filter determine the grind? The brew-time determines the grind (sort of). Coffee-to-water ratio is important, but it's not everything. That's the tricky thing about pour-over, or any manual-brewing system. There's a ton that we take for granted that our trusty Fetco or Bunn brewers do by design and automatically; things that we mess up when we take it manual.
A non-exhaustive list of the things to consider:
Coffee-to-water ratio. (~60 grams per liter is optimum, ±10%)
Water temp. (195-205*F)
Dripper temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Pouring-pitcher temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Total brew time. (at least 3 minutes, no more than 4)
Amount of turbulence created during the brew. (more turbulence may need a coarser grind)
The way the coffee grounds sit in the dripper during brew. (whatever promotes even extraction)
The way you're pouring the water. (methodical, logical, even, measured)
How long it takes you to pour the water. (whatever gets you to your target brew time)
Shape of the dripper. (determines the flow rate, and the optimum coffee dose)
As with any coffee brewing, you can only preserve and coax-out the quality that's in the coffee, so if the coffee isn't great quality, or the roasting isn't spot-on, or isn't fresh, then there isn't too much point in getting the parameters super-tight, aside from you getting some practice before you move on to a place that has better coffee to work with! That said, coffee brewing by hand is pretty tough with most of the tools available. Hopefully we'll see some easier tools and methods, but for now... have fun exploring! :-)
Um... not exactly. Which is what Nick was saying.
Dose, grind, temp, water composition, pouring style, filter material, filter shape, and individual coffee being used will all work together to yield different extraction levels. There are suggested starting points for grind for a given brewer, but these are only rough suggestions not rules. Grind is a great parameter to vary in order to achieve your desired brew.
I also agree with what Mike has said here...
b
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Brady said:¡ARRÓN! said:...3) The filter determines the grind as different filters work within a range of different coffee particle sizes. Drip vs. French press or Espresso vs. Turkish and so on. The Filter works with the Grind to achieve a desired saturation/brew time and this needs to be dialed in so as not to get over/under extraction...
Nick Cho said:1) 3) Why does the filter determine the grind? The brew-time determines the grind (sort of). Coffee-to-water ratio is important, but it's not everything. That's the tricky thing about pour-over, or any manual-brewing system. There's a ton that we take for granted that our trusty Fetco or Bunn brewers do by design and automatically; things that we mess up when we take it manual.
A non-exhaustive list of the things to consider:
Coffee-to-water ratio. (~60 grams per liter is optimum, ±10%)
Water temp. (195-205*F)
Dripper temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Pouring-pitcher temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Total brew time. (at least 3 minutes, no more than 4)
Amount of turbulence created during the brew. (more turbulence may need a coarser grind)
The way the coffee grounds sit in the dripper during brew. (whatever promotes even extraction)
The way you're pouring the water. (methodical, logical, even, measured)
How long it takes you to pour the water. (whatever gets you to your target brew time)
Shape of the dripper. (determines the flow rate, and the optimum coffee dose)
As with any coffee brewing, you can only preserve and coax-out the quality that's in the coffee, so if the coffee isn't great quality, or the roasting isn't spot-on, or isn't fresh, then there isn't too much point in getting the parameters super-tight, aside from you getting some practice before you move on to a place that has better coffee to work with! That said, coffee brewing by hand is pretty tough with most of the tools available. Hopefully we'll see some easier tools and methods, but for now... have fun exploring! :-)
Um... not exactly. Which is what Nick was saying.
Dose, grind, temp, water composition, pouring style, filter material, filter shape, and individual coffee being used will all work together to yield different extraction levels. There are suggested starting points for grind for a given brewer, but these are only rough suggestions not rules. Grind is a great parameter to vary in order to achieve your desired brew.
I also agree with what Mike has said here...
b
em, errr... which is what you actually said when I read it again a little more slowly. Nevermind that first part....
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For sure: Not my shop, not my place to question management. If it were my shop, I'd remove anybody defecting from what they were told. I'm totally respectful of how they want things done, because they're paying me to do things the way they want me to. If I have a problem, I should open my own shop! I just want to know how to get a proper cup of pour over with 190F water and NOT waste a ton of coffee.
And yes, that's .18lbs of coffee for a 12oz cup of joe!
miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:Aaron,
First I agree 100% with Phil. Not your shop, not your decision on what practices to implement. If one of my staff refused to prepare a beverage the way instructed, they'd be gone, period.
That said I also agree with Phil suggesting a quality in the cup AND bottom line approach discussing the matter.
IF your latest stated grinds weight of 0.18lb for 12oz cup is actually correct, that's beyond financially ludicrous from an owners state point. 0.18lb=81.65g for a 12oz pour-over.
Let's break it down. Let's say you shop is only paying a low ball $6/lb for coffee. 1lb=454g/81.65g=5.56 cups. OVER $1 per cup cost of just the coffee! Now if you were to brew using 22g, what I use for 12oz pour over getting rave reviews let's see the difference.
454/22=20.6 cups if again @$6/lb that makes it 29cents cost of coffee per cup. Just 100 12oz pour-overs using 22g would save $107.91-$29.13=$78.78 saved EVERY 100 12oz pour over cups. SEVENTY NINE CENTS SAVED EVERY CUP! 200 12oz pour over cups savings would pay for a 5 liter Zoji to have proper brew temp water...
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Ha ha, awesome! I don't mean to sound like I'm undermining anyone - I am just asking a ton of questions! Now, I have a couple more! Could you further elaborate on "Pouring Style" and "Water Composition?" I did not consider these two factors!
Thanks!
Brady said:Brady said:¡ARRÓN! said:...3) The filter determines the grind as different filters work within a range of different coffee particle sizes. Drip vs. French press or Espresso vs. Turkish and so on. The Filter works with the Grind to achieve a desired saturation/brew time and this needs to be dialed in so as not to get over/under extraction...
Nick Cho said:1) 3) Why does the filter determine the grind? The brew-time determines the grind (sort of). Coffee-to-water ratio is important, but it's not everything. That's the tricky thing about pour-over, or any manual-brewing system. There's a ton that we take for granted that our trusty Fetco or Bunn brewers do by design and automatically; things that we mess up when we take it manual.
A non-exhaustive list of the things to consider:
Coffee-to-water ratio. (~60 grams per liter is optimum, ±10%)
Water temp. (195-205*F)
Dripper temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Pouring-pitcher temp. (as close to water temp as possible)
Total brew time. (at least 3 minutes, no more than 4)
Amount of turbulence created during the brew. (more turbulence may need a coarser grind)
The way the coffee grounds sit in the dripper during brew. (whatever promotes even extraction)
The way you're pouring the water. (methodical, logical, even, measured)
How long it takes you to pour the water. (whatever gets you to your target brew time)
Shape of the dripper. (determines the flow rate, and the optimum coffee dose)
As with any coffee brewing, you can only preserve and coax-out the quality that's in the coffee, so if the coffee isn't great quality, or the roasting isn't spot-on, or isn't fresh, then there isn't too much point in getting the parameters super-tight, aside from you getting some practice before you move on to a place that has better coffee to work with! That said, coffee brewing by hand is pretty tough with most of the tools available. Hopefully we'll see some easier tools and methods, but for now... have fun exploring! :-)
Um... not exactly. Which is what Nick was saying.
Dose, grind, temp, water composition, pouring style, filter material, filter shape, and individual coffee being used will all work together to yield different extraction levels. There are suggested starting points for grind for a given brewer, but these are only rough suggestions not rules. Grind is a great parameter to vary in order to achieve your desired brew.
I also agree with what Mike has said here...
b
em, errr... which is what you actually said when I read it again a little more slowly. Nevermind that first part....
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Permalink Reply by Logan Demmy on
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I have a couple of different experiences with pour overs, all of which have been on hario v60s.
(side note) These are a dream come true. I have had v60's from intelli and currently the shop I work in is using them to death.
From my experience dosage has much less to do with the extraction of the coffee and much more to do with the strength. Adding more coffee will make the flavors come out stronger not change the flavors which are extracted. Likely since you are using 190 water then your are getting a very strong under extracted (sour) flavor. Your idea of steaming the water up to 200-205 is a great idea. This will increase the extraction, reducing or eliminating the sour flavor.
What kind of grinder are you using?
These brew methods are pretty temperamental, if your grinder is not able to make very small adjustments then changing the grind could be difficult. The coffee shop I currently work in changing the grind within a small spectrum is highly encourage to coax out the perfect extraction.
Lastly. Why are you serving a 16 brew bar? In my opinion brew bar is not for a big gulp, you order brew bar because you want to enjoy the subtle nuances that the coffee has to offer. It seems just an advertising ploy to offer brew bar on such a grand scale.
I know that is a bit standoffish not knowing your demographic or even the mission of your shop. I am not working in a coffee town but I am in a larger city so there is at least some coffee education already established. Good luck with your brew bar.
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The v60 looks like it would be perfect for pour over! I'll have to bug my boss about them! We are only trying out the pour over to see how people will take to it. San Diego is not a coffee town - while there are roasters in the area that make outstanding coffee (Birdrock), the love just isn't there as it is in Portland or Seattle.
Coffee can taste, I guess "over dosed," which is what I want to avoid. Maybe that's where I'm in the wrong if that's what people eventually want. When I make the pour over, it tastes like the luxury model of our base model drip, so-to-speak. Our Ditting grinder is pretty basic but it is awesome. Our goal is to establish a standardized method to be duplicated by even the inexperienced new-hires in our different locations.
I serve the 16oz because we charge 2.35 for a pour over and I want to give the customer what they pay for. It's also easier to produce, for some reason! Especially if I can get them a 16 while using way less coffee than would normally be used for a 12oz. As a customer, myself, I'd be happy to get a medium for said price rather than a small.
To digress, San Diego seems to be sold on the 'idea' of a quality product rather than a legitimately quality product. There's a bit of pretentiousness, if I may be so bold. But that's just like my opinion, man.
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