Esquire pieces?
Just saw these, reposted after being reposted on Facebook. Thought I'd post them here to see what y'all thought.
The articles are here and here.
Written by Todd Carmichael, who I know little about. Apparently, he's a coffee guy that once walked to the South Pole on foot - presumably after being kicked out of the expedition's car for being a tool. But I digress...
The articles are here and here.
Written by Todd Carmichael, who I know little about. Apparently, he's a coffee guy that once walked to the South Pole on foot - presumably after being kicked out of the expedition's car for being a tool. But I digress...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jacob Casella on
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"Coffee is a spice used to infuse hot water"--yep, I think we're not on the same page. That, and I'm not making coffee to serve after a garlic-intensive meal--not that there's anything wrong with that. The thing that kills me about these articles is that he goes to such lengths to prove his own expertise before ridiculing everyone else. Certainly, the hipster side of coffee geek-down can go too far (and I'm with him on the civets), but--just don't go into that kind of shop, man. No shortage of coffee in these parts.
It's been posted before, but James Liu made a pretty good defense against this kind of thing:
http://jamesliu.coffeespoons.org/?p=1714
Looks like this guy has his own coffee company: http://www.lacolombe.com/. I'd check out the cafes given a chance (but I'll leave it to wiser heads than mine to wonder about a 7-bean blend). Too bad he's decided to only write negative pieces, instead of telling us what he really likes about coffee.
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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on
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i'm continually confused when people say that we've gone from dosing 7g to dosing 21g. nobody is stuffing 21g into a single basket, and nobody was ever putting 7g into a double basket. is it too much to ask that you understand a bit of basic math and barista skill before a major magazine hires you to write an article?
after fully reading both the articles, and mr. carmichael mentioning kopi luwak, i would say he's far closer to the redneck who comes into my shop asking for "jamayker blue mountain" than anything passing for a barista or a roaster in today's industry. both those articles are nonsense.
and, again, try putting 21g of espresso into a LM 7g basket and tell me what happens. i call BS.
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Permalink Reply by Joona Suominen on
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I can put a small check mark on the 2,3,4 and 7 (my phone ain't that a smart one tho) and am glad to be corrected by Lucy Charmichael.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Yates on
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Mr. Carmichael sounds bitter and ignored. Actually, I thought it was rather good irony...except he meant every word, and intended to wound, rather than poke gentle fun at our geekery and obsession. Truly, I would rather hang with obsessed geeks who understand the idea of a coffee "community" than listen to a bitter has-been who reflects on the glory days of poverty and drug use while encouraging our customers to settle for mediocre coffee and service.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Fuss on
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Should also mention the illustration in the first article is a ripped-off Mark Prince photo, probably mis-appropriated via Wikipedia.
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This is the Second Wave pouring out its resentment of the Third Wave. La Columbe is a major "Italian-style" roaster for Philly and NYC that was once king of the coffee shops (or one of the kings), but rarely gets mentioned any more in serious newspaper or magazine stories on the best coffees in that region (much less the hardcore coffee blogs).
An Italian barista/writer recently made the same confusing comments about the 7g. to 21g. shift, failing to explain they were really talking about the shift from traditional Italian singles to updosed doubles.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Paul Yates said:Mr. Carmichael sounds bitter and ignored. Actually, I thought it was rather good irony...except he meant every word, and intended to wound, rather than poke gentle fun at our geekery and obsession. Truly, I would rather hang with obsessed geeks who understand the idea of a coffee "community" than listen to a bitter has-been who reflects on the glory days of poverty and drug use while encouraging our customers to settle for mediocre coffee and service.
Agreed.
I actually thought the Van Halen guitar solo bit was the perfect distillation of this article - very much from the past, meant as an insult, kinda amusing anyway, a little curmudgeonly.
I really liked the James Liu piece that Jacob posted a link to, and had not seen it before. Thanks for posting.
I've found this whole thing to be food for thought.
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Permalink Reply by Karen Claunch on
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100% agreed. The liquid pressure breaching in reference to beer was quite amusing, though.
Regardless of topic, it tends to grate on me when people dole out extremely developed criticism after criticism without providing a similarly thought out solution. The fact that he's taking a dig at us, well, that just rubs salt in the wound.
Oh well, he's probably one of those guys who's only happy when he's complaining.
Paul Yates said:Mr. Carmichael sounds bitter and ignored. Actually, I thought it was rather good irony...except he meant every word, and intended to wound, rather than poke gentle fun at our geekery and obsession. Truly, I would rather hang with obsessed geeks who understand the idea of a coffee "community" than listen to a bitter has-been who reflects on the glory days of poverty and drug use while encouraging our customers to settle for mediocre coffee and service.
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Permalink Reply by Brian W. Jones on
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My exact thoughts. He sounds jealous of the young guys getting all the press. I find it ironic that his own site talks about their cafes only concern being for quality coffee, yet he writes an entire article berating people who are passionate enough to take quality to a new level. Not surprised he feels that way, but surprised that Esquire would humor such a terrible article.
Paul Yates said:Mr. Carmichael sounds bitter and ignored. Actually, I thought it was rather good irony...except he meant every word, and intended to wound, rather than poke gentle fun at our geekery and obsession. Truly, I would rather hang with obsessed geeks who understand the idea of a coffee "community" than listen to a bitter has-been who reflects on the glory days of poverty and drug use while encouraging our customers to settle for mediocre coffee and service.
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Permalink Reply by Simon Ouderkirk on
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I've been reading (and now, I guess, re-reading) these pieces, and the series by our friend from illy that Marshall made reference to, and I have been trying to keep an open mind. My initial response was one of annoyance, and some frustration, but I think there is a lot to learn, from both of these dudes.
But what is it that we can learn?
It seems interesting that they are both products of a very specific tradition (and that their traditions are very similar to one another), and that their primary complaints seem to be that we (painting broadly, as are our detractors) are straying from their traditions.
But I think that these two gentlemen and myself would agree that our goal is the same: to produce an outstanding little cup of coffee. Could it be, at the end of the day, this is where the three of us disagree, on what means will accomplish that end (of deliciousness)? Or is it that they are holding tight to a dogma that perhaps is restraining them?
Worth thinking about, either way.
edit: Another quality response: http://godshot.blogspot.com/2010/06/thank-you-sir-may-i-have-anothe...
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Permalink Reply by Mike Sabol on
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I think Marshall is hitting the nail on the head. These "articles" are actually marketing propoganda aimed at re-positioning the third wave coffee shops as faddish also-rans. La Colombe has been in business a good while and rode the initial wave when Starbucks exploded back in the early 90's. They were able to differentiate themselves in the marketplace by saying that Starbucks was "Street Coffee" and that they were "Culinary Coffee" and were able to treat the bean in a fashion that Starbucks could not because of it's approach to the marketplace. La Colombe has been working hard to maintain that distinction along with the handful of other roasters who are still in business from that time period. And then Stumptown comes along. The fact of the matter is that the new roasters are beginning to get into the big institutional accounts, like hotels, that are really profitable and that have also served as the bread and butter for that previous generation of roasters. When they start losing accounts to the third wave roasters then they have to start doing something about it. What I think is really interesting is the fact that Esquire is running the pieces. We've all heard the critiques of the "Hipster Douchbags" a million times before and nothing much has come of it. But now a big national media outlet is targeting "Hipster Douchbags". I bet in six months Time magazine will run a story about how America is falling out of love with the "Third Wave".
Opinions of Mr. Carmichael's motivations not withstanding, I think there is a cautionary lesson to gather from the articles. For the sake of argument lets pretend that there is this "fad" that TC was poking at. Well, what if you own a coffee shop that is based on that fad? You are thinking that you're "all about the coffee" but in actuallity your success is based on riding the third wave. Talking the talk, walking the walk, with the beards, tats and everything. What are you going to do when you become the target of derision in an SNL sketch. A living cariacature. And you thought you were "all about the coffee". If there is a fad and the winds of fortune change then the rug will be pulled from your feet and you will be out of business.
For those of us old enough to remember the Dot-com build up and subsequent explosion there are some interesting parallels. In the dot-com days everybody was talking about the promise of the internet and the comming revolution of the hyper-connected world. Many companies were build on trying to race full speed into that unknown and were able to raise a massive amout of debt in selling their vision but were never able to generate any revenue, let alone profit. The third wave is similar in that we hear an awfull lot about the promise of the coffee and it's connection to the people at the origin and just how really awesome and super fantastic coffee, as a philosophy, is but the shops that talk about this have slow service, because each pull of espresso must be just so and each cup of coffee must be individually brewed. And the baristas will tell a customer "No" to perfectly reasonable requests. Which is bad customer service. That customer who was told "no" will never go back again and never recomend your cafe to any of their friends. I hear a lot of talk in the third wave about serving coffee but I hear almost none about serving customers. There is a lot of talk about doing right by the coffee but there is very little about doing right by your customers. If the fad changes and you don't have a strong culture of customer service in your cafe then you'll be dead in the water.
I'm not saying that is what is going to happen but it never hurts to look at your own actions from an outside perspective once in a while. We might be able to dismiss Mr. Carmichael's rantings and rancor without a second thought but I would suggest we would do so at our own peril.
Just food for thought.
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