unblending the blend
Considering that different coffee beans vary in density and moisture, and that those factors effect the grind, would it not make sense to grind the beans separately into the portofilter, using say three grinders? It could provide some interesting results by layering the different coffees, and changing the layers to see how it effects extraction. Do you think it would make a difference in the quality of the shot?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dennis McQuoid on
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Joona - I was referring to Joseph's repeating it does not make sense. You did mention issues that could possibly negate any good effects.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on
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Dennis, I'm very sorry if I came off as Condescending regarding your question. There are no silly questions or questions that don't deserve the kind of explanation you want and need. Joona Suominen's comments make the most sense to me. He has enough experience to understand the factors that play into a good answer for this question.
This forum is full of folks like me who have coffee shops or coffee shop/roasterys with a considerable experience and knowledge. I for one have a difficult time explaining in simple to understand terms base or ground level questions like yours. When you do interesting experiments like this one your talking about there are some basic rules of testing and tasting as it is in this case. You mentioned three grinders to grind three different beans. In this test it would be important to make sure the three grinders were first the same make and model and hopefully close to the same age on the burr sets. I have friends who do tests like this. These grinders start at about $400 to $600 depending. I only own one for my primary espresso setup.
Although impractical in many cases, it still is fun to see what taste changes take place with tweaks on one element or another.
I can so relate to your point of business development. We did all the build out on this old house we bought our selves. Hiring 2 or sometimes 3 guys to help keep the total remodel to just over a year to complete and get the doors open. You are at the most exciting stage. This is were your careful planning will pay off in spades later. If I could do it all over I would have changed a few things in the commercial kitchen lay out.
I wish you the very best. If you have any questions at all in this process please post them here on Barista exchange or email some like me on this list who will give you direct and personal feed back. There are some specific groups here on BX that might play directly into the stage your are currently in with your set up.
Very Best Regards Dennis,
Joseph Robertson
www.jolindas.com
Home of:
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
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Thanks again for the information Joseph.
Joseph Robertson said:Dennis, I'm very sorry if I came off as Condescending regarding your question. There are no silly questions or questions that don't deserve the kind of explanation you want and need. Joona Suominen's comments make the most sense to me. He has enough experience to understand the factors that play into a good answer for this question.
This forum is full of folks like me who have coffee shops or coffee shop/roasterys with a considerable experience and knowledge. I for one have a difficult time explaining in simple to understand terms base or ground level questions like yours. When you do interesting experiments like this one your talking about there are some basic rules of testing and tasting as it is in this case. You mentioned three grinders to grind three different beans. In this test it would be important to make sure the three grinders were first the same make and model and hopefully close to the same age on the burr sets. I have friends who do tests like this. These grinders start at about $400 to $600 depending. I only own one for my primary espresso setup.
Although impractical in many cases, it still is fun to see what taste changes take place with tweaks on one element or another.
I can so relate to your point of business development. We did all the build out on this old house we bought our selves. Hiring 2 or sometimes 3 guys to help keep the total remodel to just over a year to complete and get the doors open. You are at the most exciting stage. This is were your careful planning will pay off in spades later. If I could do it all over I would have changed a few things in the commercial kitchen lay out.
I wish you the very best. If you have any questions at all in this process please post them here on Barista exchange or email some like me on this list who will give you direct and personal feed back. There are some specific groups here on BX that might play directly into the stage your are currently in with your set up.
Very Best Regards Dennis,
Joseph Robertson
www.jolindas.com
Home of:
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
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Joona,
No, I'm the one who mentioned it the second time. So my comment makes it twice. I of all persons, usually make little sense of anything.
JoeR
Joona Suominen said:I'm not sure if your implying me with "saying it twice" but I truly tried to explain why it doesn't make sense and don't want to seem like a heartless monster (any more than I already am). For me "sense" is just a word and it is neither a good thing or a bad thing, it just is. So: although something may lack in sense, it may still be fun and interesting. I myself do all kinds of experiments all the time and they certainly lack sense and meaning. Needless to say they are mostly alcohol-related.
Dennis McQuoid said:Joseph: I had an idea that I thought was interesting and opened it for discussion among a group of people who know way more than I do. Some people seem to agree that it is interesting - even if impractical, which is something I also wanted to know. Just saying it does not make sense is not a productive response. Even if you say it twice. While Joona may be absolutely correct in saying it does not make sense, I wanted to know why, because I'm learning.
As far as time on my hands, I'm in the process of opening my first shop. Have lease in hand for a week now, in an empty space. I need to order everything, work with architects and contractors, and everything else. If I had time on my hands (and resources), I suppose I would have tried it on my own and posted results.
Thank you for your input on roasting and moisture content. I found that to be informative - and interesting.
Joseph Robertson said:Dennis,
Just how much time do you have on your hands. My sense is you have quite a bit of time on your hands if you are a Barista. Joana really hit the nail on the head, your question does not make any sence or any science as I know it. I mean really Dennis do you want to drink an espresso blend or single origin spro? Or do you just want to play with it.
As a coffee roaster who studied with one of the best, the green beans of the 2 or 3 origins you are using in your pre-roast blend are mixed the day before to stabilize the moisture content between all different origins. Trust me on this one. After roasting at temps that I'm sure you know there will not be enough difference in moisture between the different beans to notice it in the spro extraction process. There are quite a number of other factors but try not to over think this wonderful art/science of coffee. Save your brain cells for caffination. Drink more spro.
But if you like to play with it, indeed, roast, blend, grind, pull shots, taste shots, cup the coffee. As a roaster cupping is what it is all about. As a barista which I do as well because my shop is still small and growing I love messing with the extraction as well.
Cheers,
Joseph
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Permalink Reply by will frith on
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Joseph is assuming you're using an old-world style espresso blend, all blended and roasted together (with steps like moisture stabilization in between, of course. I'd argue that this method ignores bean density as a variable, but that's another thread), but without all the info, none of us can say anything with any amount of certainty. Your question brings more questions, a good thing, and I would encourage you to keep your brain engaged in this type of "senseless" activity.
Long after you've gotten your place open, your latte art perfected, your extractions consistent, your brain will continue to ask things that may or may not have any practical value. This is an important way of avoiding old-crotchety-ness of the mind, keeping yourself engaged in the coffee and never just settling for "what we've always done" or what we've been told by someone else (who is probably just as unsure as we all are, just unwilling to admit it).
I have no answer, just suggestions and conjecture, and I hope your question (and perhaps subsequent experiments) helps us learn at least a bit more about coffee. We're nowhere near the end of questioning. We've only really just begun to learn how to ask the questions...
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Will,
When we interpret "Joseph is assuming you're using an old-world style espresso blend", each others posts here on BX or any other Social Networking site it is easy to confuse a person who new to the great and grand coffee world.
I guess I did not make my example very clear. I was using this pre-blending example as a way to explain one of the ways to deal with the moisture variable. This "old-world" style of roasting is only one of the ways I roast. Yes bean density, I also take that into account when I, post roast blend my beans. Old world / new world, I use them all. There is no one way to search and find the sweet spot we roasters and cuppers look for.
I like your comments and advice Will. It is a day to day effort to avoid the "old-crotchety-ness of the mind" that comes with doing something the same way too long and somehow getting convinced by yourself that you have the answers and your way is the best. I so don't want to end up like that.
BX and all the members like I'm finding on this thread have helped me stay focused and steady on my coffee road to enlightenment. Dennis, you may already have found that or one of those moments when you see the beautiful blobs and bubble looking streams of golden brown creama dropping into your morning shot glass.
Then comes the Nose, and finally the taste buds. Once in a while you hit the well known but only occasionally experienced GOD shot.
May you enjoy many....
Cheers,
Joseph
will frith said:Joseph is assuming you're using an old-world style espresso blend, all blended and roasted together (with steps like moisture stabilization in between, of course. I'd argue that this method ignores bean density as a variable, but that's another thread), but without all the info, none of us can say anything with any amount of certainty. Your question brings more questions, a good thing, and I would encourage you to keep your brain engaged in this type of "senseless" activity.
Long after you've gotten your place open, your latte art perfected, your extractions consistent, your brain will continue to ask things that may or may not have any practical value. This is an important way of avoiding old-crotchety-ness of the mind, keeping yourself engaged in the coffee and never just settling for "what we've always done" or what we've been told by someone else (who is probably just as unsure as we all are, just unwilling to admit it).
I have no answer, just suggestions and conjecture, and I hope your question (and perhaps subsequent experiments) helps us learn at least a bit more about coffee. We're nowhere near the end of questioning. We've only really just begun to learn how to ask the questions...
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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on
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There is no teacher quite like hands-on personal experience. Be it a fool's errand, or an earth-shattering idea. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks if you gain some insight from it.
Everyone's response has been armchair criticism of some sort or other. I could offer the same, but it wouldn't do you any good.
In fact, I'll feed the idea to hopefully push you towards trying it when given the chance.
I'm under the impression that extractions lower in the basket are quite different than extractions higher in the basket. Layering different coffees is an interesting thought. Disregarding the fear of horizontal channeling (which I have seen plenty of), it may make sense to arrange the layers a certain way.
Let's say that one of the three coffees tastes better as slightly under-extracted, and another has more to offer throughout the entire range of extraction. Would the order of these layers have an effect? Would it be possible to actually have more control over the desired outcome without having to stuff 20g of coffee into a double basket?
What about temperature? Infusion? I think that the order of the layers would have an impact on how each coffee is extracted on a number of levels. It's certainly worth exploring in the real world, even if it seems impractical at first, or silly to others.
Of course, channeling may ruin everything. Would that be a reason to give up right away? Perhaps. But I doubt it. The idea of mixing after grinding to me, seems more pointless. The result of that would be different grind settings, and that's about it. Not nearly as much fun.
Just my $.02.
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I'm used to the criticism Jason. They laughed at me when I invented the internet.
Jason Haeger said:There is no teacher quite like hands-on personal experience. Be it a fool's errand, or an earth-shattering idea. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks if you gain some insight from it.
Everyone's response has been armchair criticism of some sort or other. I could offer the same, but it wouldn't do you any good.
In fact, I'll feed the idea to hopefully push you towards trying it when given the chance.
I'm under the impression that extractions lower in the basket are quite different than extractions higher in the basket. Layering different coffees is an interesting thought. Disregarding the fear of horizontal channeling (which I have seen plenty of), it may make sense to arrange the layers a certain way.
Let's say that one of the three coffees tastes better as slightly under-extracted, and another has more to offer throughout the entire range of extraction. Would the order of these layers have an effect? Would it be possible to actually have more control over the desired outcome without having to stuff 20g of coffee into a double basket?
What about temperature? Infusion? I think that the order of the layers would have an impact on how each coffee is extracted on a number of levels. It's certainly worth exploring in the real world, even if it seems impractical at first, or silly to others.
Of course, channeling may ruin everything. Would that be a reason to give up right away? Perhaps. But I doubt it. The idea of mixing after grinding to me, seems more pointless. The result of that would be different grind settings, and that's about it. Not nearly as much fun.
Just my $.02.
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Nice. :D
Dennis McQuoid said:I'm used to the criticism Jason. They laughed at me when I invented the internet.
Jason Haeger said:There is no teacher quite like hands-on personal experience. Be it a fool's errand, or an earth-shattering idea. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks if you gain some insight from it.
Everyone's response has been armchair criticism of some sort or other. I could offer the same, but it wouldn't do you any good.
In fact, I'll feed the idea to hopefully push you towards trying it when given the chance.
I'm under the impression that extractions lower in the basket are quite different than extractions higher in the basket. Layering different coffees is an interesting thought. Disregarding the fear of horizontal channeling (which I have seen plenty of), it may make sense to arrange the layers a certain way.
Let's say that one of the three coffees tastes better as slightly under-extracted, and another has more to offer throughout the entire range of extraction. Would the order of these layers have an effect? Would it be possible to actually have more control over the desired outcome without having to stuff 20g of coffee into a double basket?
What about temperature? Infusion? I think that the order of the layers would have an impact on how each coffee is extracted on a number of levels. It's certainly worth exploring in the real world, even if it seems impractical at first, or silly to others.
Of course, channeling may ruin everything. Would that be a reason to give up right away? Perhaps. But I doubt it. The idea of mixing after grinding to me, seems more pointless. The result of that would be different grind settings, and that's about it. Not nearly as much fun.
Just my $.02.
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